SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    TowsonTiger22

    Member
    Mar 27, 2008
    65
    I'd like to comment on them physically printing the cards.

    I'm an armed security manager. I am therefore required to maintain a Handgun Permit, and a Security Guard card from the state. Last time I renewed my SG card, it took them four months to actually print it. I had to get my delegate on them to hurry them up. They tried to claim the only printer was down. So, even if they have to start issuing, they may attempt to dig their heels in with this same excuse.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    I received my Nevada non resident permit from Las Vegas Metro Police in 23 days, which included the time to mail it to me.. I received my VA non resident permit in 30 days.This excuse just doesn't pass muster based on today's technology.

    They may try it but it won't work for long.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    Question for the eagles..(Esq, Patrick or Mark)

    Can a civil court ruling be used as precedent in a criminal case or vice versa or are they separate.?

    Thanks guys
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    I'd like to comment on them physically printing the cards.

    I'm an armed security manager. I am therefore required to maintain a Handgun Permit, and a Security Guard card from the state. Last time I renewed my SG card, it took them four months to actually print it. I had to get my delegate on them to hurry them up. They tried to claim the only printer was down. So, even if they have to start issuing, they may attempt to dig their heels in with this same excuse.

    Then delegate the printing to the MVA. Any station, any location, any time.

    "I'm {your name}, and I am here to pick up an ID." No need to declare to the world what it's for. Prove you're you... boom... done...

    Shoot, for all that, it could even be (and this has been mentioned before), some sort of endorsement on your license/MD ID (since not everyone drives), and run concurrently unless revoked.
     

    jrosenberger

    Active Member
    Jan 19, 2011
    332
    NH
    While I don't post often, this statement brings a thought to mind.

    If he applies for a permit and gets one, it will be after the fact and should not apply.
    Like fishing without a lisence, geting busted, getting a lisence, you are still busted due to time you were cought you did not have the right.

    Any other thoughts?

    Things like that are SOP in traffic court, at least here in MA. Get a ticket for expired inspection, broken headlight, etc; if you bring documentation that you corrected the problem, they'll drop the ticket. Obviously a criminal violation is a different beast, but the concept is not unheard of.

    Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
     

    Elliotte

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 11, 2011
    1,207
    Loudoun County VA
    OK That makes sense.

    Next question, would he give the defense (or the plaintiff) a heads up before he issues his ruling?

    If he rules against a permanent stay, it will place a burden on the MSP. Does he have any obligation to allow them time to prepare?
    No, not done. He might have the clerk call counsel for both parties and say that the decision will be issued today at a time certain. But apart from that, nobody gets a heads up. Even that is hardly necessary. ECF (e-filing) automatically sends an e-mail notification to counsel as soon as something is entered on the e-docket. And if the MSP hasn't figured it out by now, with the temporary stay in place, a heads up won't help them much.
    In a way they do get time to prepare. If Judge Legg removes the temporary stay, the state gets to ask for a stay from the 4th Circuit. Only after they got shot down at the 4th would they be forced into issuing without considering G&S.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    I believe the state can't delay if Judge Legg lifts the stay. If the CA4 has not decided a stay request from MD. MSP must abide by Legg's original ruling.

    IANAL
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,366
    White Marsh
    In a way they do get time to prepare. If Judge Legg removes the temporary stay, the state gets to ask for a stay from the 4th Circuit. Only after they got shot down at the 4th would they be forced into issuing without considering G&S.

    This is not true. If Legg denies the stay, MSP must start processing permit applications without consideration of G&S. They're obligated to follow the new law of the land until CA4 says otherwise, through a stay and/or overturning Legg's ruling on the case itself.
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    In a way they do get time to prepare. If Judge Legg removes the temporary stay, the state gets to ask for a stay from the 4th Circuit. Only after they got shot down at the 4th would they be forced into issuing without considering G&S.

    One thing to consider, though...

    In the intervening gap, would MSP be reqiured to begin issuing permits based on apps that are in process (and probably already past their 90 days)? And would a failure to do so be considered to be in contempt of Legg's ruling?
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    Good question. But there is always the issue of "good faith" .I don't think Gansler wants to cross that bridge by playing more games. MSP said they were awaiting Judge Legg's ruling. If he lifts the stay and they then play the 90 day game, I don't think the Judge will be very happy,
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I received my Nevada non resident permit from Las Vegas Metro Police in 23 days, which included the time to mail it to me.. I received my VA non resident permit in 30 days.This excuse just doesn't pass muster based on today's technology.

    They may try it but it won't work for long.

    That's fast. It took Va 10 weeks for me to get my Va non-resident permit.
     

    CharlieFoxtrot

    ,
    Industry Partner
    Sep 30, 2007
    2,527
    Foothills of Appalachia
    Question for the eagles..(Esq, Patrick or Mark)

    Can a civil court ruling be used as precedent in a criminal case or vice versa or are they separate.?

    Thanks guys

    Yes they can, precedent is precedent. Doesn't matter if it comes from a civil or criminal case. For example if a civil case says you have a constitutional right to bear arms in public then that case can be used as precedent to defend someone charged criminally with that conduct. Is this what you were asking?
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    Yes they can, precedent is precedent. Doesn't matter if it comes from a civil or criminal case. For example if a civil case says you have a constitutional right to bear arms in public then that case can be used as precedent to defend someone charged criminally with that conduct. Is this what you were asking?

    Exactly. I had an argument with a guy in another forum about Revell vs Port Authority of NY and NJ. He claimed the ruling on Revell's civil appeal would have no bearing in a criminal case because it involved a 1983 claim.

    thoughts?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Exactly. I had an argument with a guy in another forum about Revell vs Port Authority of NY and NJ. He claimed the ruling on Revell's civil appeal would have no bearing in a criminal case because it involved a 1983 claim.

    thoughts?

    nonsense, CharlieFox is right. The law is the law. If it unconstitutional under 1983 in a civil suit, then it is unconstitutional to enforce that same law in a criminal prosecution. See, e.g., Bond v. United States, 131 S.Ct. 2355 (2011) (holding a criminal defendant has standing to challenge the constitutionality of a statute which was the basis of her prosecution).
     

    OLD FORD GUY

    Member
    Mar 31, 2012
    66
    Baldwin, MD
    Status
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