The list of databases that MSP checks for gun purchases

Forthefunofit · May 30, 2013

Tekkies Needed

IF you are a Techno type, can you please set them up with a scanner and a data entry program to eliminate the human factor and speed this up? I know your out there and want to buy a gun too.

tapeman1 · May 30, 2013

Forthefunofit said:
IF you are a Techno type, can you please set them up with a scanner and a data entry program to eliminate the human factor and speed this up? I know your out there and want to buy a gun too.

It would take a college student about 3 hours to write a program that would query all of those databases simultaneously.

Benanov · May 30, 2013

and, no.

tapeman1 said:
It would take a college student about 3 hours to write a program that would query all of those databases simultaneously.

...and a consultant worth their salt a week to clean up the mess left by the college student overloading the database connections with rapid-fire queries.

Writing a query isn't hard. Writing a bunch of queries in a row isn't hard. Writing fast, efficient queries that return the data you're actually looking for isn't as easy, especially with the typical state of data health in most databases: aliases, changed names, mispellings...and that assumes the data is actually searchable (scans of paper forms aren't, really)

There is a degree of optimization that could be done by parallelizing the queries, IF the server infrastructure can support it, sure. Depends on how many people are searching at once, though.

The engineer in me goes "yeah, we should make all this paperwork electronic, and then the submission adds the request to a giant queue, and then we have multiple bots pull a job, do the searches, and slap results in the another queue for final human review" - and the anti-statist in me realises that idea would just hand them an electronic gun buyer's registry, part and parcel, and WE submitted the data for it.

I'm okay with 90 days.

dfens42 · May 30, 2013

They already have a registry. At this point I'll take having my guns over the state having my name AGAIN.

Benanov · May 30, 2013

dfens42 said:
They already have a registry. At this point I'll take having my guns over the state having my name AGAIN.

Yeah, I saw that here, after I wrote that.

PA has a transfer registry, which is effectively what this is. It's not an ownership registry (PA is explicitly prohibited from making one, but that doesn't stop the cops from using it as such.)

ELEMENT94 · May 30, 2013

Benanov said:
...and a consultant worth their salt a week to clean up the mess left by the college student overloading the database connections with rapid-fire queries.

Writing a query isn't hard. Writing a bunch of queries in a row isn't hard. Writing fast, efficient queries that return the data you're actually looking for isn't as easy, especially with the typical state of data health in most databases: aliases, changed names, mispellings...and that assumes the data is actually searchable (scans of paper forms aren't, really)

There is a degree of optimization that could be done by parallelizing the queries, IF the server infrastructure can support it, sure. Depends on how many people are searching at once, though.

The engineer in me goes "yeah, we should make all this paperwork electronic, and then the submission adds the request to a giant queue, and then we have multiple bots pull a job, do the searches, and slap results in the another queue for final human review" - and the anti-statist in me realises that idea would just hand them an electronic gun buyer's registry, part and parcel, and WE submitted the data for it.

I'm okay with 90 days.

???????????????

Dizzy · May 30, 2013

Having seen some of those databases, its not easy to write a script that can do all the searches. MD is symptomatic of almost all gov't agencies. Bids are given to the lowest bidder and not every contractor creates the same type of databases. That creates a nightmare for someone trying to do a search on multiple databases. NICS and NCIC was supposed to fix that problem, but as we all know, not everything is reported and in some cases, names are spelled wrong as well.

Try running a search on the MD Judiciary database:
http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-index.jsp

You'll see many mistakes, misspellings, etc... In many cases, you can figure it out, but its much harder if you are running thousands of checks at a time. That's just the MD Court database. Based on the list, that's quite a few different databases with different search engines. I don't envy MSP's job in doing all these searches. However, IMHO, its completely unnecessary if there's already NICS and NCIC.

Mark75H · May 30, 2013

Dizzy said:
However, IMHO, its completely unnecessary if there's already NICS and NCIC.

If you could force all the MD agencies to submit data fully and timely ... I think the solution is to make NCIC and NICS the sole database ... forcing MD to comply or shut up

dblas · May 30, 2013

tapeman1 said:
It would take a college student about 3 hours to write a program that would query all of those databases simultaneously.

I see a lot of rework in the list and I have to wonder why?

I also have to wonder why MSP, Public Safety and Corrections, MD CJIS, and DHMH don't enter all of their information in NICS and NCIC so that instead of checking 15 different databases, they are down to 4 or 5?

Alea Jacta Est · May 30, 2013

The hell with this gun stuff...I ought a be selling these nitwits a database/ toolto mine their multiple (read SHITLOAD) of databases. Ndont wonder her your fn tax money goes...it's goin to geeks. Holy sh1t...that's n awful lot of data bases. Surprised it doesn't take em longer than it does.

EHS1976 · May 30, 2013

I only count 16 databases (15 if a private transfer at an MSP barracks). I keep reading about 17 databases. Where is the other database?

zoostation · May 30, 2013

fabsroman said:
The third DUI makes a person a prohibited person for a year's time starting on the date of the third conviction and every subsequent conviction thereafter. So, maybe they are looking at that. However, that should show up on their search of the Judicial Information System.

Who knows what the heck they are looking for. Doesn't seem as though some of that stuff can be used to prohibit a person from buying a firearm.

Those, and it is my understanding they are also looking at unpaid/FTA state traffic citations. That makes one a "fugitive from justice." :rolleyes:

zoostation · May 30, 2013

tapeman1 said:
It would take a college student about 3 hours to write a program that would query all of those databases simultaneously.

You have to work around the state CJIS bureaucracy to understand. I had to work with (but thankfully never for) CJIS when I ran a couple of units for the county. Jobs are guaranteed for life unless you just plain don't show up for work, ever, and initiative, forward thinking, or thinking at all really, are not encouraged.

EHS1976 · May 30, 2013

Are you saying that unpaid parking tickets make you a fugitive from justice? They could then disapprove you and press charges against you? That seems absurd.

zoostation · May 30, 2013

EHS1976 said:
Are you saying that unpaid parking tickets make you a fugitive from justice? They could then disapprove you and press charges against you? That seems absurd.

I don't think its parking tickets AFAIK but I believe they are holding them up for state traffic citations that haven't been taken care of.

ShallNotInfringe · May 30, 2013

EHS1976 said:
I only count 16 databases (15 if a private transfer at an MSP barracks). I keep reading about 17 databases. Where is the other database?

The "MOM Enemy List"?

ShallNotInfringe · May 30, 2013

zoostation said:
I don't think its parking tickets AFAIK but I believe they are holding them up for state traffic citations that haven't been taken care of.

The law does not accommodate for this arbitrary selection process. Nothing in the application or in the law that calls out traffic tickets or any such malarkey. There are only 3 reasons you can be disapproved:

(a) Grounds.- The Secretary shall disapprove a firearm application if:

(1) the Secretary determines that the firearm applicant supplied false information or made a false statement;

(2) the Secretary determines that the firearm application is not properly completed; or

(3) the Secretary receives written notification from the firearm applicant's licensed attending physician that the firearm applicant suffers from a mental disorder and is a danger to the firearm applicant or to another.

And here's the entirety of the investigation article:

§ 5-121. Investigation of firearm applicant.

(a) Secretary to conduct investigation.- On receipt of a firearm application, the Secretary shall conduct an investigation promptly to determine the truth or falsity of the information supplied and statements made in the firearm application.

(b) Request for assistance.- In conducting an investigation under this subsection, the Secretary may request the assistance of the Police Commissioner of Baltimore City, the chief of police in any county maintaining a police force, or the sheriff in a county not maintaining a police force.

[An. Code 1957, art. 27, § 442(i); 2003, ch. 5, § 2.]

EHS1976 · May 30, 2013

I assume everyone knows that the ATF knows what you have purchased if you purchase two or more pistols or revolvers from the same FFL within 5 business days. See 27 CFR § 478.126a. This seems to be a national "registry." Check out ATF form 3310.4.

OCSlacker · May 31, 2013

You also have to take into account the fact that the NCIC is accessible via a special terminal only. There's no 'web interface' for it. For those Fed/Mil folks think of a SIPR or JWICS terminal.

Then there's the delay in these systems, they're hardly 'fast'.

Benanov · May 31, 2013

ELEMENT94 said:
???????????????

Dizzy said:
Having seen some of those databases, its not easy to write a script that can do all the searches. MD is symptomatic of almost all gov't agencies. Bids are given to the lowest bidder and not every contractor creates the same type of databases. That creates a nightmare for someone trying to do a search on multiple databases. NICS and NCIC was supposed to fix that problem, but as we all know, not everything is reported and in some cases, names are spelled wrong as well.

...

You'll see many mistakes, misspellings, etc... In many cases, you can figure it out, but its much harder if you are running thousands of checks at a time. That's just the MD Court database. Based on the list, that's quite a few different databases with different search engines. I don't envy MSP's job in doing all these searches. However, IMHO, its completely unnecessary if there's already NICS and NCIC.

I'm not okay with 90 days because I'm okay with 90 days. I'm okay with 90 days because it beats the alternative, which IMNSHO is a well-oiled rights-crushing machine.

As a firearm purchaser, I want my background checks to be near-instant - I want my firearm to leave with me as soon as the money leaves my account (or cash leaving my hands)... but as someone who values his privacy for certain things, I'd rather not have that sort of thing so readily available, as it's really ripe for abuse.

Every once in a while you see a case where cops were searching the databases for records of people they had no official business dealing with - they were snooping around.

I choose what I share and where I share it. Not other people.

Clearer?

The list of databases that MSP checks for gun purchases

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