No4 MKI Savage, 1942 with scope mount pads

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  • OMCHamlin

    Ultimate Member
    BANNED!!!
    May 17, 2017
    1,115
    The Cumberland Plateau
    Hi all, I am hoping to get some insight into what I have here (or what I don't have, if that's the case).
    In a multi item purchase, the almost "freebie" in the deal was this quite tired old 1942 Savage No4 MKI. The bore was so dark, it sucked all the lumens out of my bore light. At first, getting a patch down her was a chore, but several one hour sessions with various potions that reeked and foamed, and copper wool wrapped around an old bore brush, etc... The bore looks "better", but the amazing thing is it shoots okay with her battle peep and 150 gr S&B SPs.

    Now here is where it gets unusual; this one is marked on the buttstock "S51" and has cheek piece screw holes in her comb, but the cheek piece is gone (Bubba don't need no cheek piece?), and on the left side of the receiver as S No4 MKI , (over) -1942-. It has No32 type scope pads screwed to the left receiver wall and no stampings on the wrist, no "T" or "R" visible, just the S/N, which is "13C68XX", both on the wrist and stamped on the back of the bolt handle, visible from the rear. The word "ENGLAND" is stamped into the front receiver ring.
    When I got it, Bubba had already been kind enough to have removed the rear sight and installed a "no gunsmithing, no zero-holding" scope mount with a Redfield 6-18 target scope on her!
    So after cleaning, and reading, and cleaning some more, I purchased a milled rear sight (marked "F" with a Broad Arrow next to it, in the white and with a battle peep), a magazine marked "SMC" on the follower, a front sling swivel, ejector screw and a replacement trap door for the butt (original was broken). None of the replacement parts cost me an arm or a leg, so I'm not going to cry over those small expenditures, they were needed to give it some semblance of completeness.
    When I did shoot her, we only had about 75 yards, and I had a 25yd pistol target, but between two shooters, she grouped center in the black with the battle peep.

    So, my question is, after reading about the earlier in the war Savage efforts, could this be a rifle selected for sniper conversion, but never had a scope mated to her beyond fitting the mounting pads? Or mis-matched surplus junk, good as a curio and occasional range blaster? I guess an idea of value in present condition would be appreciated as well.

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    Last edited:

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    Must be a very early Savage as the majority were mark I* and this one obviously is not. The cocking piece on the bolt is older looking than most I have seen as well. My memory (perhaps faulty) is that Savages were not turned into "T"s or if so rarely and my gut is saying someone added the blocks after market. I suspect with everything else that looks like an earlier version of the Savage it has 5 groove and not the eventual 2 groove barrel as well.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I think your right it may have had the pads fit but never had a telescope fitted to it and then left in service. Right around that time period Savage rifles were starting to become overlooked for commonwealth candidates. Sometimes I think they were even changing the barrels out on the ones they were going to telescope (S marked) with UK tubes. The guys with the books should have all the answers.
    Your lucky bubba couldn't and didn't figure out how to pry the pads off!
    I would check the barrel to see what the groove count is and try to identify if its been changed to a British one. I have a couple Savage rifles that have the ordnance shell and flame both in two and four groove examples and they should be easy to ID with a S or the ordnance stamp right in front of the knox form. The oldest, with a B prefix has been swapped out with a S marked two groove in fantastic shape.
    Whats interesting from your photos is the woods right near the rear pad. It looks like its had something drug across it more than one time. Could have been a bracket and scope. Looks like your rifle has been together with the same parts for a long time. I can see what appears to be the milled front band and maybe a S marked foresight protector.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Found this on another sight

    Observations: by Advisory Panel Member Lance
    Note: Rifle provided courtesy of member ~Angel~.

    During the dark day's of 1941 Great Britain was in need of all the weapons she could find even purchasing firearms from their runaway colony, the United States of America. Some of these were made under contract at Savage Firearms in Massachusetts. Savage made over one million Lee Enfield No.4's with around 150,000 being of the Mk I variation and the rest Mk I*.

    Due to the Blitz British made rifle supply to Holland and Holland was interrupted thus slowing the conversion of No. 4's to No.4 T's. To maintain production Savage made rifle's were introduced in the gaps with most fully converted examples being in the first 2,000 produced; some with higher serial numbers were definitely converted but from what I have observed a majority are in the low serial number range.

    It is hypothesized that these rifles were placed on the side and which ever crate was on top that bunch of rifles were put into production during slow times. Near the end of the war this supply of rifles were partially converted by the addition of scope pads, modified rear sight, and cheek piece; but they were never paired with a scope or mount. Per the records over 3,400 rifles were partially converted at the end of the war mostly comprising of 1941-42 Savage Mk I and Mk I* and 1944-45 BSA Mk I (surprisingly a 1943 dated example has appeared recently!)

    Back to the Savage made examples, these rifles were also re-barreled with British made 5 groove barrels and British foresights as one might suspect that the later examples were originally fitted with 2 groove barrels. This can be confirmed by removal of the rear hand guard. All other Savage made parts were kept.

    As these rifle's were not needed at the time they were put away into war reserve in the standard No. 15 chest marked "less telescope" and most were made surplus in the 1960's this way. An interesting variation to the Lee Enfield collector.
     

    OMCHamlin

    Ultimate Member
    BANNED!!!
    May 17, 2017
    1,115
    The Cumberland Plateau
    ...I would check the barrel to see what the groove count is and try to identify if its been changed to a British one.
    -Looks like a 5 groove barrel, but I have not taken the wood off yet to look for barrel markings

    ...Whats interesting from your photos is the woods right near the rear pad. It looks like its had something drug across it more than one time. Could have been a bracket and scope.
    -I see that, but don't know what it's from. Old damage though.

    Looks like your rifle has been together with the same parts for a long time. I can see what appears to be the milled front band and maybe a S marked foresight protector.
    -Now that you have me looking, I see a small "S" on both upper and lower bands and the front sight ears (marked on front of right ear).

    Thanks for the info. I'm starting to think I should have been looking for a "S" marked rear sight that's had it's battle sight removed, and maybe a Savage magazine, to make this old gal as right as possible. I don't really understand the S51 on the butt stock, as that would imply this rifle had been through H&H for conversion?

    Geeze though, part of me knows I don't want to make a $800 surplus No4 MK1"T" (by the time I get a decent repro mount, cheek piece and scope) that ends up being worth $400... I've done silly stuff like that before. Maybe I'll just shoot it a little more with these irons and see what she's capable of like that first.
    Question: Are the common repro mounts and scopes decent for their intended purpose? I suppose I'd need the scope adjusting tool as well... MORE $$$!
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    The wrist marking I think is H&H. If you look at the rear of the receiver just to the right of the safety lever and then on the opposite side you may see some more marks. Right where the butt stock meets the socket on the action body to the left and right of the bolt race way.
    I haven't built a T yet up from the repop brackets and telescopes. The thing is with the pads already mounted and sweated in place if the bracket fits the pads the scope may not be aligned with the bore properly. The scopes should be collimated and then fitted individually. If its not done correctly you could run out of adjustment for the full range of adjustment.
     

    OMCHamlin

    Ultimate Member
    BANNED!!!
    May 17, 2017
    1,115
    The Cumberland Plateau
    The wrist marking I think is H&H. If you look at the rear of the receiver just to the right of the safety lever and then on the opposite side you may see some more marks. Right where the butt stock meets the socket on the action body to the left and right of the bolt race way.
    -Nothing there as far as I can see without taking the butt stock off.

    I haven't built a T yet up from the repop brackets and telescopes. The thing is with the pads already mounted and sweated in place if the bracket fits the pads the scope may not be aligned with the bore properly. The scopes should be collimated and then fitted individually. If its not done correctly you could run out of adjustment for the full range of adjustment.
    -I read about that procedure, I think I can manage that, with a scope tool.

    Thanks!
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,338
    Catonsville
    Thanks for the info. I'm starting to think I should have been looking for a "S" marked rear sight that's had it's battle sight removed, and maybe a Savage magazine, to make this old gal as right as possible. I don't really understand the S51 on the butt stock, as that would imply this rifle had been through H&H for conversion?

    Geeze though, part of me knows I don't want to make a $800 surplus No4 MK1"T" (by the time I get a decent repro mount, cheek piece and scope) that ends up being worth $400... I've done silly stuff like that before. Maybe I'll just shoot it a little more with these irons and see what she's capable of like that first.
    Question: Are the common repro mounts and scopes decent for their intended purpose? I suppose I'd need the scope adjusting tool as well... MORE $$$!

    Finding an S marked Singer sight from a sniper conversion, san battle sight, might be extremely difficult. I've been looking for an L marked Longbranch Singer for a looong time and can't ever remember running across an ex-sniper Singer from any manufacturer, let alone a Savage. Hate saying it but it might be easier to mill off the BS from an S marked sight like H&H did. And looking at what people are asking for Singer sights, even that's not going to be cheap. There's someone in the UK with what looks like a NOS Savage sight and he's asking $150 for it! Hell, that's just $75 south of a quality diopter sight for the No4 like a PH.
     

    303_enfield

    Ultimate Member
    May 30, 2007
    4,651
    DelMarVa
    Pull the buttstock an see if the number matches. As for Savages, Enfield converted the first ones. Enfield made 1,403 T's some being the 1931/33 trails rifles, 41'42' Savages No4 MkI and MkI*plus BSA rifles. Early rifles (pre H&H) didn't have the TR or cheek riser. They where fitted later. When Holland & Holland got the Savage T's some where issued an some shelved. I have Savage #4MkI (42) 0C5901 issue with scope. Savage #4 MkI* (42) 14C2576 issued scope an Savage #4MkI* (42) 15C4911 unissued scope less.

    Really get some books an hit the Enfield forum I posted earlier. Capt Laidler is still kicking! Plus Dr Paine an the crazy Cannuck Warren (he rebuilt eight of my No 32's). Warren just listed glass lens for the 32's.
     

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    Thanks for the info. I'm starting to think I should have been looking for a "S" marked rear sight that's had it's battle sight removed, and maybe a Savage magazine, to make this old gal as right as possible. I don't really understand the S51 on the butt stock, as that would imply this rifle had been through H&H for conversion?

    Geeze though, part of me knows I don't want to make a $800 surplus No4 MK1"T" (by the time I get a decent repro mount, cheek piece and scope) that ends up being worth $400... I've done silly stuff like that before. Maybe I'll just shoot it a little more with these irons and see what she's capable of like that first.
    Question: Are the common repro mounts and scopes decent for their intended purpose? I suppose I'd need the scope adjusting tool as well... MORE $$$!

    I'm not clear from the above and the conversation if you are looking for a Singer S marked sight or a Savage S marked sight? I would think a Savage sight is more what you are in search of but can't be sure.
     

    OMCHamlin

    Ultimate Member
    BANNED!!!
    May 17, 2017
    1,115
    The Cumberland Plateau
    I'm not clear from the above and the conversation if you are looking for a Singer S marked sight or a Savage S marked sight? I would think a Savage sight is more what you are in search of but can't be sure.

    That's okay, I'm guessing that a Savage marked sight might be more correct, unless those were routinely replaced during the sniper rifle conversion process. I don't know, I'm still learning.
     

    303_enfield

    Ultimate Member
    May 30, 2007
    4,651
    DelMarVa
    I'm not clear from the above and the conversation if you are looking for a Singer S marked sight or a Savage S marked sight? I would think a Savage sight is more what you are in search of but can't be sure.

    No, he wants the Singer as the Savage is a "T" rifle.
     

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