Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

Inigoes · Apr 25, 2018

Cold Steel said:
Many, many, many people get in trouble for volunteering information they don't need to to the cops. Don't volunteer anything. Never lie, but then, never, EVER, volunteer for a police search of your vehicle, even if you [think you] have nothing to hide. Cops will oftentimes ASK to search your vehicle. Don't let them. Even if you're honest and they're honest, nothing good will come of it. Be polite, and if they're determined to search your car anyway, tell them to go ahead, but note that it is without your consent.

Never give an affirmation. That can be taken the wrong way.

People will always be people, and hear what they want.

esqappellate · Apr 25, 2018

Inigoes said:
Never give an affirmation. That can be taken the wrong way.

People will always be people, and hear what they want.

Agreed: Telling them to "go ahead" will be likely read as "consent." It may not matter that you also say "I don't consent." Don't resist (never) but don't make it easy for them to hear a consent either. Simply say, "officer, I don't consent to any search" and let him/her take it from there without any resistance.

3paul10 · Apr 25, 2018

Silly cops.

Lev928 · Apr 25, 2018

songlaw said:
Another Point of View:

I hadn't been pulled over for anything in about 15 years, until about a year ago, when I got a MD CCW permit. I was stopped in Fairfax, for allegedly making in improper lane change. I had just left court, so my weapon was in my glove compartment. The office asks for my license and registration, so I informed him that, although I am under no obligation to disclose this, I have a permit, and my registration is in the glovebox, along with my firearm. The officer asked if the vehicle was registered to me, and if so, leave the glovebox closed, and I will run a check. I did get a ticket, but got it dismissed later in court. The cop said I was going to write two citations, but appreciated that I disclosed the weapon disclosure, and just wrote one.

About a month later, I was returning from a trip to AGC, and was pulled over for speeding, about 18 (or 23-can't remember) miles over the limit. I had my weapon on my right hip. I had an open jacket that concealed it, but it could have been visible, if I leaned over to open the glovebox to produce my registration. I politely told the Carroll County deputy that, although I am under no obligation to do so, I have my CCW, and the weapon on me.
He was very courteous, and gave me a just a warning, stating that he appreciated that I told him about the weapon.

The point is, the cops are not my enemy. They are people doing their jobs. They want to go home to their families, at the end of their shift. I know people have different opinions, but I think if you are polite, and take away the chance that they will get a glimpse of a weapon and get all surprised and jumpy, the disclosure might help you.

The officers appreciated that I told them. They know that you've been screened pretty well, and that you are a stand-up citizen. I think if I did not disclose, I would have received a speeding ticket, instead of a warning.

Just another point of view... Of course, this is based on a CCW permit holder's POV.

Best statement/answer/explanation on here I've read so far (the first three pages).

I've been a cop for 27 years working in two states. Without going into war story mode, I've dealt with armed criminals, good citizens and off duty cops on traffic stops. A lot. I won't go into detail on stopping armed criminals, as it's irrelevant. However, with the exception of two (2) traffic stops (one with a citizen and the other an off duty cop) all of them went smooth.

The overwhelming majority of citizens and off duty cops have told me they were armed right from the start (either on their person or somewhere in the vehicle). To me, the reason WHY they had a firearm was of no concern to me. They TOLD me they had one and, in general, I never ask in the first place. And I thanked them and continued the traffic stop. As a side note, I never wrote ANY of them a ticket. Why? Because they were honest and didn't create a potentially dangerous situation. They gave me AND themselves the opportunity to go home alive. Period. And that's what it's all about, right? Self-protection and the protection of others.

I will tell the tales of the two young men (the citizen and off duty cop) that did not go well from the very start of the traffic stop. If you learn nothing else here, learn WHAT NOT TO DO RIGHT NOW:

I stopped a young man in his 20's for speeding. As I walked up to the driver's window, he reached under his seat, came up with a pistol in his hand and immediately threw it on the dashboard. He raised his hands and said "I have a gun". I told him not to reach for it and told the passengers to keep their hands where I could see them. I holstered my pistol (drew it immediately when he brought up the pistol (duh), but never pointed it at him) when my backup arrived soon after. He had no CCW permit, but his license was valid and he was legally permitted to own a firearm. After issuing him a ticket (or warning ... I can't recall), I told him to drive up the road, unload the pistol and secure it in his trunk. This is how a citizen with OR without a CCW should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

The stop with the young off duty cop (not saying where he worked) went very similar. As I approached the driver's window, exact same thing ... pistol went flying onto the dashboard. "I'm on off duty cop just so you know". I corrected him by telling him that he was a STUPID off duty cop. After I holstered, I got his license, registration and credentials. He got a written warning. This is how an off duty cop should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

That being said, to this day I don't care if you have a CCW or not ... if you're carrying a firearm, not committing another crime, have a valid drivers license and are legally permitted to own a firearm, I'm not going to arrest you. I'm not going to seize your gun. You may or may not get a ticket or a warning. If you simply make it easier for both of us to go home at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Yes, there are cops out there (mostly young ones) that may not react/act in the same manner as I do under the same circumstances. Generally speaking, you'll find things go much easier if you're honest. Lies usually compound more lies ... which can lead to bad things on both ends. Know your rights, but also understand that the overwhelming majority of cops are good, honest people that are not out to harass, ticket, arrest and/or shoot good American citizens whether you own and carry a firearm or not.

GTOGUNNER · Apr 25, 2018

All good info, back to the OP.

When a firearm is lost or stolen and reported to the police, the questions will be. Make, model and SN of the firearm. NSN won't be an issue. NSN might become an issue if you, for some reason, have contact with LEO.
Well yes officer, it's legal to have a firearm with no SN. Officer says, I know that but this one matches the description of one that was stolen last week. It also had no SN. Please put your hands behind your back.

Sent from the 3rd Rock

esqappellate · Apr 25, 2018

Lev928 said:
Best statement/answer/explanation on here I've read so far (the first three pages).

I've been a cop for 27 years working in two states. Without going into war story mode, I've dealt with armed criminals, good citizens and off duty cops on traffic stops. A lot. I won't go into detail on stopping armed criminals, as it's irrelevant. However, with the exception of two (2) traffic stops (one with a citizen and the other an off duty cop) all of them went smooth.

The overwhelming majority of citizens and off duty cops have told me they were armed right from the start (either on their person or somewhere in the vehicle). To me, the reason WHY they had a firearm was of no concern to me. They TOLD me they had one and, in general, I never ask in the first place. And I thanked them and continued the traffic stop. As a side note, I never wrote ANY of them a ticket. Why? Because they were honest and didn't create a potentially dangerous situation. They gave me AND themselves the opportunity to go home alive. Period. And that's what it's all about, right? Self-protection and the protection of others.

I will tell the tales of the two young men (the citizen and off duty cop) that did not go well from the very start of the traffic stop. If you learn nothing else here, learn WHAT NOT TO DO RIGHT NOW:

I stopped a young man in his 20's for speeding. As I walked up to the driver's window, he reached under his seat, came up with a pistol in his hand and immediately threw it on the dashboard. He raised his hands and said "I have a gun". I told him not to reach for it and told the passengers to keep their hands where I could see them. I holstered my pistol (drew it immediately when he brought up the pistol (duh), but never pointed it at him) when my backup arrived soon after. He had no CCW permit, but his license was valid and he was legally permitted to own a firearm. After issuing him a ticket (or warning ... I can't recall), I told him to drive up the road, unload the pistol and secure it in his trunk. This is how a citizen with OR without a CCW should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

The stop with the young off duty cop (not saying where he worked) went very similar. As I approached the driver's window, exact same thing ... pistol went flying onto the dashboard. "I'm on off duty cop just so you know". I corrected him by telling him that he was a STUPID off duty cop. After I holstered, I got his license, registration and credentials. He got a written warning. This is how an off duty cop should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

That being said, to this day I don't care if you have a CCW or not ... if you're carrying a firearm, not committing another crime, have a valid drivers license and are legally permitted to own a firearm, I'm not going to arrest you. I'm not going to seize your gun. You may or may not get a ticket or a warning. If you simply make it easier for both of us to go home at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Yes, there are cops out there (mostly young ones) that may not react/act in the same manner as I do under the same circumstances. Generally speaking, you'll find things go much easier if you're honest. Lies usually compound more lies ... which can lead to bad things on both ends. Know your rights, but also understand that the overwhelming majority of cops are good, honest people that are not out to harass, ticket, arrest and/or shoot good American citizens whether you own and carry a firearm or not.

I think this is really good advice (full disclosure in the manner discussed) for permit holders everywhere, except in Maryland. IN Maryland most permits have restrictions. Those restrictions are usually vaguely worded (while conducting business as ...) Under state law, carrying outside the restrictions is the same as not having a permit at all, which means up to 3 years in jail and a lifetime firearms disability under federal law for a conviction (regardless of the actual punishment). If the LEO isn't sure you are within your restrictions, he can arrest or detain for hours. And yes, that's happened. Repeatedly. That is why vague restrictions are so dangerous. Which is why you shouldn't volunteer a thing if you are carrying under a restricted permit.

cowboywildbill · Apr 26, 2018

Lev928 said:
Best statement/answer/explanation on here I've read so far (the first three pages).

I've been a cop for 27 years working in two states. Without going into war story mode, I've dealt with armed criminals, good citizens and off duty cops on traffic stops. A lot. I won't go into detail on stopping armed criminals, as it's irrelevant. However, with the exception of two (2) traffic stops (one with a citizen and the other an off duty cop) all of them went smooth.

The overwhelming majority of citizens and off duty cops have told me they were armed right from the start (either on their person or somewhere in the vehicle). To me, the reason WHY they had a firearm was of no concern to me. They TOLD me they had one and, in general, I never ask in the first place. And I thanked them and continued the traffic stop. As a side note, I never wrote ANY of them a ticket. Why? Because they were honest and didn't create a potentially dangerous situation. They gave me AND themselves the opportunity to go home alive. Period. And that's what it's all about, right? Self-protection and the protection of others.

I will tell the tales of the two young men (the citizen and off duty cop) that did not go well from the very start of the traffic stop. If you learn nothing else here, learn WHAT NOT TO DO RIGHT NOW:

I stopped a young man in his 20's for speeding. As I walked up to the driver's window, he reached under his seat, came up with a pistol in his hand and immediately threw it on the dashboard. He raised his hands and said "I have a gun". I told him not to reach for it and told the passengers to keep their hands where I could see them. I holstered my pistol (drew it immediately when he brought up the pistol (duh), but never pointed it at him) when my backup arrived soon after. He had no CCW permit, but his license was valid and he was legally permitted to own a firearm. After issuing him a ticket (or warning ... I can't recall), I told him to drive up the road, unload the pistol and secure it in his trunk. This is how a citizen with OR without a CCW should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

The stop with the young off duty cop (not saying where he worked) went very similar. As I approached the driver's window, exact same thing ... pistol went flying onto the dashboard. "I'm on off duty cop just so you know". I corrected him by telling him that he was a STUPID off duty cop. After I holstered, I got his license, registration and credentials. He got a written warning. This is how an off duty cop should NOT alert an officer/deputy of being armed.

That being said, to this day I don't care if you have a CCW or not ... if you're carrying a firearm, not committing another crime, have a valid drivers license and are legally permitted to own a firearm, I'm not going to arrest you. I'm not going to seize your gun. You may or may not get a ticket or a warning. If you simply make it easier for both of us to go home at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

Yes, there are cops out there (mostly young ones) that may not react/act in the same manner as I do under the same circumstances. Generally speaking, you'll find things go much easier if you're honest. Lies usually compound more lies ... which can lead to bad things on both ends. Know your rights, but also understand that the overwhelming majority of cops are good, honest people that are not out to harass, ticket, arrest and/or shoot good American citizens whether you own and carry a firearm or not.

All true. And great points
I never liked being lied to either. Them being courteous and respectful and honest to us went a long way in how we decided what the disposition would be in most cases when it was left to our discretion.
Luckily I didn't do traffic stops, but in the situations we handled it went a long way for them to be civil.
I also didn't throw my badge in the officers face if I was being stopped.
I would tell them who I was when asked and that I was carrying . Then when they asked for my D.L. and registration I would give them what they asked for. And then credentials if they wanted to see them..
In my own cars I had FOP plates so they asked if I was the registered owner, and I said yes sir and I'm sorry.
I didn't get stopped much.
As dangerous as it was working when I did it, my heart really goes out to these fine men and woman working in this current world/culture/society .
It is just plain crazy and evil out there now.
Pray for safety for all of them doing a thankless and extremely dangerous job for all of us.
God Bless them.

awg9tech · Apr 26, 2018

DC-W said:
If you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re not doing anything wrong.

The OP doesn’t get get to decide if he’s “not doing anything wrong”. Some one else makes that decision for him.

And while “ignorance of the law is no excuse” applies to you and me, it does not apply to the police officer. A police officer only has to “reasonably believe a law exist”-Heien v. North Carolina

If the police officer believes that is reasonable that your firearms should have a serial number, and yours does not, then “you’re doing something wrong”.

JohnnyE · Apr 26, 2018

awg9tech said:
The OP doesn’t get get to decide if he’s “not doing anything wrong”. Some one else makes that decision for him.

And while “ignorance of the law is no excuse” applies to you and me, it does not apply to the police officer. A police officer only has to “reasonably believe a law exist”-Heien v. North Carolina

If the police officer believes that is reasonable that your firearms should have a serial number, and yours does not, then “you’re doing something wrong”.

This isn't necessarily an ignorance of the law issue. The officer may be well aware of the laws regarding serial numbers on arms. It is a question of fact whether the laws apply to the specific firearm in question. Settling questions of fact are what trials are nearly always about.

awg9tech · Apr 26, 2018

JohnnyE said:
This isn't necessarily an ignorance of the law issue. The officer may be well aware of the laws regarding serial numbers on arms.

Ignorance of the law is rarely the real issue. The officer may be very well versed in the nuance of all the laws reguarding serial numbers on firearms. However, knowing that he has no expectation of knowing the law, can claim a reasonable expectation that a law should/would exist that *all* firearms should have serial numbers.

It is a question of fact whether the laws apply to the specific firearm in question. Settling questions of fact are what trials are nearly always about.

Most people do not desire to be in the situation that would require them to raise questions of facts at a trial. Especially a firearms related one, in Maryland.

Th OP is referring to a police stop. The OP is already in the position that he feels will require him to defend himself. I agree. Especially since the police officer has no expedition to know the law and essentially, can make it up as he goes , so long as he believes he can make just a reasonable argument.

Going to trial, the OP has already essentially lost. Time off work, finding an attorney, attorney fees, having your mug all over TheBayNet and then the trial itself. To the cop, DA and the commenters on TheBayNet, your just another criminal off the street.

JohnnyE · Apr 26, 2018

awg9tech said:
Ignorance of the law is rarely the real issue. The officer may be very well versed in the nuance of all the laws reguarding serial numbers on firearms. However, knowing that he has no expectation of knowing the law, can claim a reasonable expectation that a law should/would exist that *all* firearms should have serial numbers.

Most people do not desire to be in the situation that would require them to raise questions of facts at a trial. Especially a firearms related one, in Maryland.

Th OP is referring to a police stop. The OP is already in the position that he feels will require him to defend himself. I agree. Especially since the police officer has no expedition to know the law and essentially, can make it up as he goes , so long as he believes he can make just a reasonable argument.

Going to trial, the OP has already essentially lost. Time off work, finding an attorney, attorney fees, having your mug all over TheBayNet and then the trial itself. To the cop, DA and the commenters on TheBayNet, your just another criminal off the street.

There are several points floating around here, and I think we agree on them.

I was attempting to differentiate between issues of law, versus issues of fact. Law should be known by all, though police get a pass if they don't whereas citizens get no such leeway.

If an officer mistakenly thinks serial numbers are required on all firearms, he has made a mistake of law. It sucks for a citizen to be put into the trick bag, in essence, for violating a law that doesn't exist. That's sloppy on the part of the police, and not a legitimate reason for a citizen to get hauled into the criminal justice system.

On the other hand, an officer who accurately knows the law, that serial numbers are required on some, but not all, firearms, but being mistaken as to whether a serial number is required for that one specific firearm, is mistaken as to a question of fact which, let's face it, is what the justice system is centered around determining.

Disputes as to fact are expected, disputes as to law, much less so. Of course, for practical purposes, as you point out, you lose just for playing.

awg9tech · Apr 26, 2018

Yep, we’re on the same page.

However, for sake of discussion and dialog, I would caution the following:

JohnnyE said:
Law should be known by all, though police get a pass if they don't whereas citizens get no such leeway.

One study cites that for the average adult, reading 250-300 words per minute, reading full time, it would take them nearly 3 years to read the 2012 edition of the Code of Federal Regulations.

And that’s before we even get to State and local laws.

So yes, we should know the law. But more importantly, we should be able to know the law.

Given the shear number of laws, we’ve criminalized the citizenry and even further, as you mentioned, given the police leeway in what constitutes law.

mark71211 · Apr 26, 2018

A buddy of mine bought a 16 ga western field double barrel for a gun store that did not have a serial number on it.

PoPo3 · Apr 26, 2018

I’ve read about four pages of this so I may answer some things that have already been answered and make enemies at the same time.

I run a drug unit in Hagerstown. The quote that “if a cop wants to get in a car, he will” is ********. We can, illegally, and lose credibility in court. Not worth the hassle. I’ve pulled over many cars that I knew had guns/drugs in them and ended up having to let them ride away. It’s part of the proverbial game. I’m not risking my job over an illegal search. However, I’m not every cop either.

As far as the gun question.....there is usually one or two gun nuts that work at every agency (I’m one of them). When things like this come up, we are the guys who are called. Explain why you have a gun with no serial number and, at best, you will be checked to see if you are prohibited to own a firearm. If so, you will be arrested. If not, you will be on your merry way (provided you didn’t do anything stupid in the process).

JohnnyE · Apr 26, 2018

awg9tech said:
Yep, we’re on the same page.

However, for sake of discussion and dialog, I would caution the following:

One study cites that for the average adult, reading 250-300 words per minute, reading full time, it would take them nearly 3 years to read the 2012 edition of the Code of Federal Regulations.

And that’s before we even get to State and local laws.

So yes, we should know the law. But more importantly, we should be able to know the law.

Given the shear number of laws, we’ve criminalized the citizenry and even further, as you mentioned, given the police leeway in what constitutes law.

Perhaps I should have said that citizens are accountable for knowing the law, whereas LEO's are not.

Your comment about the time it would take to just read the CFR's reminds me of Regent University Law Professor James Duane's video "'Don't talk to the police" and how it is impossible, for practical purposes, for a citizen to know all the laws to which he/she is subject.

Lev928 · Apr 28, 2018

PoPo3 said:
I’ve read about four pages of this so I may answer some things that have already been answered and make enemies at the same time.

I run a drug unit in Hagerstown. The quote that “if a cop wants to get in a car, he will” is ********. We can, illegally, and lose credibility in court. Not worth the hassle. I’ve pulled over many cars that I knew had guns/drugs in them and ended up having to let them ride away. It’s part of the proverbial game. I’m not risking my job over an illegal search. However, I’m not every cop either.

As far as the gun question.....there is usually one or two gun nuts that work at every agency (I’m one of them). When things like this come up, we are the guys who are called. Explain why you have a gun with no serial number and, at best, you will be checked to see if you are prohibited to own a firearm. If so, you will be arrested. If not, you will be on your merry way (provided you didn’t do anything stupid in the process).

Correct. Police can't just charge someone for something they don't even know about, understand or find a valid charge for. Charges don't come out of thin air. There's laws and a guideline they (we) must follow. Additionally, court commissioners must follow law, probable cause, etc. Just because a street cop doesn't know the local/state/federal law in no way means an arrest is going to happen. IF it does happen - which is rare - it will usually get quashed pretty quick. Don't attack the police. The overwhelming majority of us are on the right side of the Constitution and law.

Lev928 · Apr 28, 2018

JohnnyE said:
Perhaps I should have said that citizens are accountable for knowing the law, whereas LEO's are not.

Your comment about the time it would take to just read the CFR's reminds me of Regent University Law Professor James Duane's video "'Don't talk to the police" and how it is impossible, for practical purposes, for a citizen to know all the laws to which he/she is subject.

LEO's in Maryland receive required annual legal updates. These updates do not usually apply to FEDERAL laws ... only state and local laws. FEDERAL officers need to be held accountable to the standard of enforcing FEDERAL firearms laws and enforcement thereof ... not state, county and local cops. As it has been stated, there are a few knowledgeable state/county and local cops regarding federal firearms laws ... but it ain't our general job to know or enforce them.

fabsroman · Apr 28, 2018

lazarus said:
If an officer asks you a question you can refuse to answer (I suggest doing so in a polite way). You cannot lie to them. Remember, police can lie to you, you cannot lie to police. The most you can do is not offer information or answer questions.

Maryland, at least without a W&C (no idea on rules for W&C), is not a state that requires you to provide information if there are firearms in the vehicle if stopped. Many states DO require you to inform the officer in a traffic stop. My 2 cents with states like that, if you are covered by FOPA then you are covered by FOPA and you don’t offer any information. If your vehicle is searched answer whatever questions politely or ask for an attorney if for no other reason than to clarify local law for you (because police won’t, or at least you cannot rely on them to. See above, police can lie to you).

Not really directed at you, but more in general.

If I am asked if there are any firearms in the vehicle, which has not happened to me for a very, very long time, my answer would be "There is nothing illegal in the vehicle officer." If the officer continues to push the subject, we can then have a nice discussion of what I am being pulled over for, whether I am being detained for anything else, the 5th Amendment, the 4th Amendment, and so on.

Just remember, always be polite. More importantly always obey the traffic laws and you will most likely not have to deal with this very often.

With cellphones and their video capability, it is too easy to record the interaction with the officer. The officer will probably have a camera on him or one on the dash of the cruiser. So, the interaction will most likely be recorded from multiple places. I have a windshield mount for my phone in all my vehicles and the phone can record video in "selfie" mode. So, if I am ever stopped by an officer, the video on the phone will be activated and the phone will be angled so it captures me and the driver side window.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Apr 28, 2018

There's a real but unofficial offense out there that has gotten many people in trouble. It's called "Contempt of Cop"...if you act like an A-hole don't expect the officer to be polite and courteous for too long. Piss him off enough and he can take his time until you cross the line and give him reason to arrest you when common courtesy was all it would have taken to complete the traffic stop and you go on your way. Even the best, most courteous officers can only tolerate so much.

I once told a citizen I stopped that he was the first person that ever talked his way into a citation rather than receive a written warning which normally would have been ok by me. If you act like a jerk don't expect leniency.

esqappellate · Apr 28, 2018

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
There's a real but unofficial offense out there that has gotten many people in trouble. It's called "Contempt of Cop"...if you act like an A-hole don't expect the officer to be polite and courteous for too long. Piss him off enough and he can take his time until you cross the line and give him reason to arrest you when common courtesy was all it would have taken to complete the traffic stop and you go on your way. Even the best, most courteous officers can only tolerate so much.

I once told a citizen I stopped that he was the first person that ever talked his way into a citation rather than receive a written warning which normally would have been ok by me. If you act like a jerk don't expect leniency.

This is all so very true. Cops are human too. So, be civil and respectful. But that doesn't mean that you consent to a search because cops have a job to do too. Just be civil about it. And BTW, under recommended SOP, officers are *supposed* to decide on whether they give a ticket or a warning on the traffic offense as they approach the vehicle prior to any interaction with the driver. But, again, they're only human.

Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

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