Bad CCW incident in Philly

Bigfoot21075 · Nov 30, 2017

molonlabe said:
Good example for training class. When caring mind your own business. Thatsyou and your loved ones. Mr. knight in shining armor's life will be changed forever.

IMHO other than EXTREME situations, that is good advice either way.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

Exuberon said:
Having a CCW doesn't give the bearer the right to insert them-self into a situation and rely on a gun to keep his butt from being kicked.

The shooter should have called the cops and monitored the situation.

From reading the reports, it doesn't sound like it was a gun fight to begin with, only a domestic getting physical.

I'm not a lawyer nor play one on TV but I'm former LE.... Most states don't train civilian handgun users on proper evaluation of the "use of force continuum" (or Escalation of Force "EOF" for you military folks). Firearm handling and safety is all well and good. However, you need to be able to justify escalating the need of force to a level of a firearm. A rough pushing around or even a fist fight in many states does not meet justification for a firearm.

There are often a lot of variables including where (public or private), known or unknown subject, intent, EOF etc.... A gun or CCW does not make you self-appointed peace officer. Our guns are fun to shoot and hunt with as well as last line of defense for our lives and property. That's our 2A rights!

....this shooter may get off....he may get manslaughter or a murder charge. In short to me; the situation does NOT seem worth it.

So a concealed carrier has no right to yell at an abuser to keep his hands off someone or he's calling the police? He has to stand 20 feet away (but of course, not make eye contact, as that could be construed as "inserting himself into the situation")? This rule is unworkable. All that matters, in my view, is whether the deceased used physical force (or the threat thereof) first, and if the shooter reasonably feared for his safety. What he did or didn't do in terms of yelling at the deceased is completely irrelevant.

John from MD · Nov 30, 2017

The prosecutor will probably try to make him out to be a wanna be cop or a guy with a big ego looking for such a scenario. Domestics suck and civilians should not get involved other than calling 911. There is no way to justify inserting yourself into a domestic argument and then shooting an unarmed guy. :sad20:

If the aggressor was armed and it appeared that the woman's life was in danger that's another story all together.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

John from MD said:
The prosecutor will probably try to make him out to be a wanna be cop or a guy with a big ego looking for such a scenario. Domestics suck and civilians should not get involved other than calling 911. There is no way to justify inserting yourself into a domestic argument and then shooting an unarmed guy.

If the aggressor was armed and it appeared that the woman's life was in danger that's another story all together.

Again, so if the carrier screams "Get your hands off of her, I'm calling the police" and he then comes over and starts pummeling you, you have no right to defend yourself? I don't agree.

CypherPunk · Nov 30, 2017

Getting involved in ANY third party incidents, including domestic assaults, is INFINITELY more dangerous for those who possess a firearm.

Well trained permit holders should thoroughly understand this fact.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

CypherPunk said:
Getting involved in ANY third party incidents, including domestic assaults, is INFINITELY more dangerous for those who possess a firearm.

Well trained permit holders should thoroughly understand this fact.

I'm not debating that. What I am arguing is that it doesn't mean that you no longer have the right to defend yourself.

John from MD · Nov 30, 2017

I'm not saying that, if you are threatened, that you cannot respond but the law says your response cannot be more than that required. You must have a sequence of escalation even if it happens in a couple of minutes. If he swings at you and you shoot him down, you too will swing in a different way. You will be hard pressed to make the case that another 24 year old posed an immediate threat of death or great bodily harm to you if he is unarmed.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

John from MD said:
I'm not saying that, if you are threatened, that you cannot respond but the law says your response cannot be more than that required. You must have a sequence of escalation even if it happens in a couple of minutes. If he swings at you and you shoot him down, you too will swing in a different way. You will be hard pressed to make the case that another 24 year old posed an immediate threat of death or great bodily harm to you if he is unarmed.

That's absolutely not true. If someone is beating you, how do you know he won't take your gun? I'm not talking about a simple swing, but a continuous beating.

John from MD · Nov 30, 2017

5.56blaster said:
At 19 I carried a machine gun to work. To protect rights. Funny that way though.

Hey I did too! I'll bet we worked for the same Uncle. :lol:

Doco Overboard · Nov 30, 2017

I didnt know rank and file were allowed to carry in Philly, everywhere else but there, my permit was no good inside city limits.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

Doco Overboard said:
I didnt know rank and file were allowed to carry in Philly, everywhere else but there, my permit was no good inside city limits.

Any permit Pennsylvania honors is honored in Philadelphia. The only Philly specific rule is that open carry requires a permit there, whereas it doesn't elsewhere in the state.

cechk01 · Nov 30, 2017

huh, right after hr38 passes out of committee. interesting timing

Gizmo98 · Nov 30, 2017

Doco Overboard said:
I didnt know rank and file were allowed to carry in Philly, everywhere else but there, my permit was no good inside city limits.

PA allows OC without permit everywhere but Philly because it's a City of the First Class. Those with a permit can carry anywhere.

woodstock · Nov 30, 2017

Exuberon said:
Having a CCW doesn't give the bearer the right to insert them-self into a situation and rely on a gun to keep his butt from being kicked.

The shooter should have called the cops and monitored the situation.

From reading the reports, it doesn't sound like it was a gun fight to begin with, only a domestic getting physical.

I'm not a lawyer nor play one on TV but I'm former LE.... Most states don't train civilian handgun users on proper evaluation of the "use of force continuum" (or Escalation of Force "EOF" for you military folks). Firearm handling and safety is all well and good. However, you need to be able to justify escalating the need of force to a level of a firearm. A rough pushing around or even a fist fight in many states does not meet justification for a firearm.

There are often a lot of variables including where (public or private), known or unknown subject, intent, EOF etc.... A gun or CCW does not make you self-appointed peace officer. Our guns are fun to shoot and hunt with as well as last line of defense for our lives and property. That's our 2A rights!

....this shooter may get off....he may get manslaughter or a murder charge. In short to me; the situation does NOT seem worth it.

yep. and anyone who knows and have been taught by the best in the field for the Armed Citizen, think Andrew Branca and Massad Ayoob. DON'T insert yourself into a situation you have no first hand knowledge of. Exuberon is spot on.

esqappellate · Nov 30, 2017

woodstock said:
yep. and anyone who knows and have been taught by the best in the field for the Armed Citizen, think Andrew Branca and Massad Ayoob. DON'T insert yourself into a situation you have no first hand knowledge of. Exuberon is spot on.

Amen!

Doco Overboard · Nov 30, 2017

GlocksAndPatriots said:
Any permit Pennsylvania honors is honored in Philadelphia. The only Philly specific rule is that open carry requires a permit there, whereas it doesn't elsewhere in the state.

Thanks, that's what I get from going by memory.
And that's all it will ever be.

sgt23preston · Nov 30, 2017

The shooter has the right of self defense, not to play cop...

The 11th Commandment applies here = mind your own business = call 911 & let them handle it...

Now he's being charged with murder...

Schipperke · Nov 30, 2017

DC-W said:
We send them to war at 18.

Stipulating the point?

kcbrown · Nov 30, 2017

This is the real, modern world. There are no knights in shining armor anymore. The political and legal landscape has ensured their extinction.

So: roll with it. Even if you see someone being beaten to death, or about to be shot, you're best off keeping you firearm holstered, and you might even be best off remaining silent about it -- because as far as society's concerned, it's none of your business. Modern society has ensured that people who actually give a crap about the well being of others in such situations have no place anymore.

Helpless death at the hands of criminals is what these people want. I say we let them have it.

GlocksAndPatriots · Nov 30, 2017

sgt23preston said:
The shooter has the right of self defense, not to play cop...

The 11th Commandment applies here = mind your own business = call 911 & let them handle it...

Now he's being charged with murder...

Might be good advice, but legally speaking, it's wrong.

Bad CCW incident in Philly

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