LC Smith or ?????

Horseman308 · Jan 30, 2021

A while back I started looking for a decent SxS - mostly for informal trap/clays (a few hundred rounds a year). I kinda got distracted, but I'm looking around again for one. I don't want a pump, auto, or O/U. I've had them all and don't care for them. I guess I'm strictly an old-school guy. The only shotguns I've kept are my Grandfather's Stevens 311 and Winchester 37, both in 16 gauge (which makes ammo really hard to find, even before the 2020 ammo shortage) and a 12 gauge coach gun - not really suitable for even the most informal of clays shooting.

I'd especially like an old-school American SxS, but my budget will be dependent on selling/trading some things in my collection I don't use. So, here are the criteria I'm sticking to for now:

SxS only
Budget: no more than $2000.
Gauge: 12 or 20 gauge.
Double triggers preferred. Not a complete deal-breaker, but like I said, old-school mentality here.

I'd like something a little more refined than the Stevens. I like it fine, but it's a little clunky in some ways. I'd like one with some checkering, maybe a little scroll-work or engraving if the price is right.

I've been looking pretty hard at an LC Smith, and there are several Field Grades on GB that are within that range. But I'm a little out of my depth here. Fox, Parker, and others are classics, too, but I'm not quite sure what I should be looking for. Are there particular brands, years, models I should be looking for or avoiding?

tallen702 · Jan 30, 2021

When looking into what are considered the "Fine" American shotguns, you need to do your research on the history of the companies, the grades, and their years of manufacture. The reason being is that many of the names (L.C. Smith, Fox, Parker) were all owned by at least one other company during their existence. Parker was eventually bought out by Remington which didn't do nearly as good a job at making them. L.C. Smith was first bought by Hunter arms (considered to be just as fine at the original ones made by the OG L.C. Smith Company) and then Marlin (which is what most of the field grades you're seeing on GB are) who "dumbed them down." quite a bit. Fox was eventually bought out by Stevens/Savage and the same thing happened. Unlike English doubles, it's VERY important to know exactly what date range the gun you are looking at was made in to ascertain whether it's really worth the asking price or not. Yes, they'll all shoot and yes, they're all better than the more pedestrian models like the Stevens 311 or Ithaca-made Lefever Nitro Special, but the cachet and price are a reflection of the money the uneducated are willing to pay simply because the barrels or action have "Fox" "L.C. Smith" or "Parker" roll-marked or engraved upon them.

My strongest recommendation, if you're looking for a higher-end American double-gun, is to look at upcoming Redding firearms auctions (they're located just up the road in Gettysburg) and see what they have. It's very rare, unless it's an all-military auction or all-Winchester auction, that they don't have at least a couple examples of each of these manufacturers in the catalog. You'll get them for way less than you'd pay on GB, and you will have the time to research everything you need to know prior to even seeing them in person (you can inspect in the morning the day of the auction).

My personal preference, given the price range you are looking at, would be to look for virtually any Anson-and-Deeley-based Birmingham Box-Lock Non-Ejector as you will get what is ultimately a finer gun for the price than you would for one of those big American names.

Horseman308 · Jan 30, 2021

tallen702 said:
When looking into what are considered the "Fine" American shotguns, you need to do your research on the history of the companies, the grades, and their years of manufacture. The reason being is that many of the names (L.C. Smith, Fox, Parker) were all owned by at least one other company during their existence. Parker was eventually bought out by Remington which didn't do nearly as good a job at making them. L.C. Smith was first bought by Hunter arms (considered to be just as fine at the original ones made by the OG L.C. Smith Company) and then Marlin (which is what most of the field grades you're seeing on GB are) who "dumbed them down." quite a bit. Fox was eventually bought out by Stevens/Savage and the same thing happened. Unlike English doubles, it's VERY important to know exactly what date range the gun you are looking at was made in to ascertain whether it's really worth the asking price or not. Yes, they'll all shoot and yes, they're all better than the more pedestrian models like the Stevens 311 or Ithaca-made Lefever Nitro Special, but the cachet and price are a reflection of the money the uneducated are willing to pay simply because the barrels or action have "Fox" "L.C. Smith" or "Parker" roll-marked or engraved upon them.

My strongest recommendation, if you're looking for a higher-end American double-gun, is to look at upcoming Redding firearms auctions (they're located just up the road in Gettysburg) and see what they have. It's very rare, unless it's an all-military auction or all-Winchester auction, that they don't have at least a couple examples of each of these manufacturers in the catalog. You'll get them for way less than you'd pay on GB, and you will have the time to research everything you need to know prior to even seeing them in person (you can inspect in the morning the day of the auction).

My personal preference, given the price range you are looking at, would be to look for virtually any Anson-and-Deeley-based Birmingham Box-Lock Non-Ejector as you will get what is ultimately a finer gun for the price than you would for one of those big American names.

That's really helpful. Thanks.

Can you point me to a good info source on the Anson-and-Deeley guns? I presume you're referring to English-made guns from the BSA or other similar factories?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

tallen702 · Jan 31, 2021

Horseman308 said:
That's really helpful. Thanks.

Can you point me to a good info source on the Anson-and-Deeley guns? I presume you're referring to English-made guns from the BSA or other similar factories?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Anson and Deeley is just a pattern of box-lock action. It's what most box-lock guns use to this day due to the simplification of previously elaborate systems and the ruggedness and durability over the years. There are some other box-lock patents out there, but the A&D design is the most common by far and the easiest to clean, and repair by far.

The other common type of action without exposed hammers that you tend to run into is the sidelock. They're less and less common the closer you get to modern production due to the complication of the action and the number of specific parts. You can see the difference along with the dead-giveaway pivot points of an A&D action here: https://www.boxallandedmiston.co.uk/shotgun-anatomy/the-difference-between-a-boxlock-and-a-sidekick

A good reference for English SxS guns is this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MYXU4L6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

It's not so much a straight reference guide, though it does talk about the different houses that made/make English guns, but rather a complete compendium of the hows, whys, and whats that you need to think about when selecting an English gun. It's ain't cheap, but no worthwhile gun reference ever is.

LC Smith or ?????

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