Young v. Borders Cert Petition SAF FILES Amicus Brief

wolfwood · Sep 23, 2017

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-machete-by-your-side/?utm_term=.aee916931e64

There is arguably a split with the NJ Supreme Court that says you have a right to come to you door armed with a machete. Case Linked above

kcbrown · Sep 23, 2017

GBMaryland said:
The court brief, I think, says that he pointed the gun in their direction. That effectively absolves the police of a crime.

Unless it that was caught by a camera, then they claim he pointed the gun in their direction. In that case, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. I'm generally inclined to give the police the benefit of the doubt but in the absence of hard physical evidence backing that claim, we only have the word of the people who did this in the first place for that.

And keep in mind that at a minimum, in the absence of that claim, this is a career-ending situation for them. There's a lot at stake for them so the incentive to tell a story that favors their actions is immensely high.

kcbrown · Sep 23, 2017

fred333 said:
Still, I think what the homeowner should'a done (to make a potential court case more winnable): 1) ring 911; 2) (from cover inside the house) loudly announce "Police are en route and I'm armed. Stay the **** outta my house. If you breach my door without a search warrant, I will defend myself." Full Stop! Next move's up to whoever's attempting to breach the door.

How are they supposed to show you the warrant unless you answer the door?

Definitely agree with calling 911. At the very least, you'd be able to get some sort of confirmation that it's actually the police who are at your house.

j_h_smith · Sep 23, 2017

Why didn't the officer announce his presence as a police officer?

I also think there are a lot of presumptions in that brief. What would you do in this exact instance. I think after opening the door, I would back up from the front door. How he backed up wasn't explained other than by the officer that shot the man. Objectively, I don't think this was a good shoot.

If the officer was knocking to gain information about the motorcycle's ownership, why would he have his firearm drawn? If he suspected a man with a gun was in the apartment, should he not have announced himself? IANAL but I'm not sure I understand the way things went down in this situation.

wolfwood · Sep 23, 2017

kcbrown said:
How are they supposed to show you the warrant unless you answer the door?

Definitely agree with calling 911. At the very least, you'd be able to get some sort of confirmation that it's actually the police who are at your house.

JH beat me to it but most police would bang on the door and say they have a warrant which of course they did not have here.

Which I don't get. If you have the house surrounded. Why not get a warrant.

fred333 · Sep 23, 2017

kcbrown said:
How are they supposed to show you the warrant unless you answer the door?

Simple. LE IDs themselves vocally and, then, the homeowner can open the door....or await 911's instructions.

kcbrown · Sep 23, 2017

fred333 said:
Simple. LE IDs themselves vocally and, then, the homeowner can open the door....or await 911's instructions.

I think you'd have to await 911's instructions. Otherwise, how can you trust that the people outside really are the police and not impostors?

If you can see their patrol cars and such, then obviously that gives a higher degree of confidence. But if you can't, then 911 is the only dependable verification method you have that wouldn't put you at substantially heightened risk.

Peaceful John · Sep 23, 2017

GBMaryland said:
The court brief, I think, says that he pointed the gun in their direction. That effectively absolves the police of a crime.

Am I the only one who sees statements like that as being self-serving?

j_h_smith · Sep 23, 2017

Peaceful John said:
Am I the only one who sees statements like that as being self-serving?

Particularly when the only one that saw the firearm was the police officer that took the shot.

whistlersmother · Sep 23, 2017

Peaceful John said:
Am I the only one who sees statements like that as being self-serving?

No, you're not the only one.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Not_an_outlaw · Sep 23, 2017

Peaceful John said:
Am I the only one who sees statements like that as being self-serving?

Yea, what else are they going to say? I see police lie every other week at the HPRB meetings. Nothing surprises me.

Blacksmith101 · Sep 23, 2017

wolfwood said:
JH beat me to it but most police would bang on the door and say they have a warrant which of course they did not have here.

Which I don't get. If you have the house surrounded. Why not get a warrant.

Because you need probable cause to get a warrant, I think he might have gone into that house probably is not probable.

CrueChief · Sep 23, 2017

Not_an_outlaw said:
Yea, what else are they going to say? I see police lie every other week at the HPRB meetings. Nothing surprises me.

GBMaryland · Sep 24, 2017

You all make good points.

It absolutely appears to that they only has 'meer suspicion,' as opposed to probable cause.

..and the rest of use are reminded:

- You don't have to, and should not open the door to you domicile if someone, especially the police, are beating on the door

- Never speak to the police without your attorney present; you don't have to answer their questions

- If you do open the door, don't have a weapon in plain view

...and make sure the cameras are recording

Young v. Borders Cert Petition SAF FILES Amicus Brief

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