The "best" home defense firearm- Vigilance Elite

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    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    gotta be careful when you shoot your wad :P

    They can have a mind of their own. I couldn't rule out a full blown wad to the face, chest, or pelvic area. I could imagine a wad doing some flesh damage to the buttocks as well.

    I agree...no 12G hostage shots for me. But I wouldn't be overly worried, at the right distance, of sending the right round down range to hit the target, and only the target.

    My house would be too large for my comfort levels. But most apartments or small town houses? I'd be comfortable. The odds of ever needing it is so slim. The odds of a hostage situation even small.

    Is it the best...nope. I just didn't see the grandma thing as relevant.
     

    babalou

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 12, 2013
    16,019
    Glenelg
    hahaha

    They can have a mind of their own. I couldn't rule out a full blown wad to the face, chest, or pelvic area. I could imagine a wad doing some flesh damage to the buttocks as well.

    I agree...no 12G hostage shots for me. But I wouldn't be overly worried, at the right distance, of sending the right round down range to hit the target, and only the target.

    My house would be too large for my comfort levels. But most apartments or small town houses? I'd be comfortable. The odds of ever needing it is so slim. The odds of a hostage situation even small.

    Is it the best...nope. I just didn't see the grandma thing as relevant.

    the full blown to areas I may have done. j/k hahahahaha seriously, I have see wads hit crap and do a lot of damage. Seen slo-mo where it did not completely come off and went into the target, along with the buckshot
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    The Bad Guy using Grandma as a shield is * A * criteria point . There are lots of criteria points . Some of them are directly opposing , and it is inherently impossible for a single firearm to meet all of them . Some measure compromising is inescapable .

    Identify all the possible criterion that might possibly apply to you . Prioritize them , and decide their relative likelihood , and their importance to you , and your general beliefs about compromise . Do you want something that is is really, really good at the presumably most important criteria , or something at least adequate for as many aspects as possible ?

    As noted above Blaster puts high priority at capability to shoot a bad guy from behind Grandma , that's a valid choice . Some people might realistically face threats form roving bands of armed Llama rustlers and have to engage waay over there . Some people might expect to have twin babies, and a stack of Kruegerands under one arm , and need very good one hand only control . Some people want the absolute maximum ( felon dropping power ) from across the room , but no requirements beyond 25 yards . And so forth .
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    My critique is the "grandma" standing next to the bad guy thing. The correct round, within the correct distance, isn't going to hit grandma. His statement promotes the theory that you "point and fire" a shotgun and it kills everything. I'm in a larger house and would not take wall to wall shots with in. But at hallway distances I'd have zero problems and I'd expect all pellets to be on target. The wad I can't account for.

    I agree it likely isn't the best HD weapon. But it's killed many of men throughout history and there's a reason they are so popular.

    On a stationary hostage shot, assuming it was the classic bad guy head next to good guy head, I'd feel okay taking that shot at 10 yards with my SBS loaded with 8 pellet Federal Flite Control 00 buckshot. My 15 yard pattern would do the trick, but I'd be way more comfortable at 10. My patterns from class last year are in this article:

    https://civiliangunfighter.wordpres...er-home-defense-shotgun-culpeper-va-11-09-19/

    Edit to add:

    Some of my own patterning work is visible in pics on this article about another class. Pics of my shotguns in front of cardboard targets shot at 5, 10, 15, and 25 yards.

    https://civiliangunfighter.wordpres...-chandler-shotgun-skills-culpeper-va-9-21-19/
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Plug away...:innocent0
     

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    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    Geez. Guess I gotta buy a Ruger PCC now since I don’t have any parts for a 9mm AR yet.

    Darn. I am so sad.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Good video, agree with his conclusions. Have run shotguns enough in classes and competition to see a LOT of people short stroking pumps, or get completely lost with a malfunction. They are difficult to learn, and need bulky caddies if you want the ability to reload at all. Figure 4-8 rounds is all you have to work with, and maybe 1 shot per second with no practical way to reload is a big handicap to overcome vs 30 rounds of rifle or pistol ammo from a carbine. Shot also does weird things, have seen buck skip off of target frames or the ground and hit no-shoot targets that were not in the line of fire, have seen bird shot get completely stopped by leather or a thin metal door when hit from 10' away, or split and go trucking through a 2x target frame at the same distance, just too unpredictable IMO.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    Good video and sound advice- interesting results on penetration of standard walls. Shame I don’t have a 9mm carbine currently but I used to and it was stupidly easy to shoot with relative accuracy.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    His overpenetration tests left a lot to be desired. The 5.56 behaved exactly as it is supposed to in the first shot through the soda can....it fragmented and quickly dissipated energy. That's why it didn't sail into the "neighbor" target behind the exterior wall. The second shot was just through the couple inches of rubber target, which just got it tumbling but not fragmenting. The mcx 9mm shot was through the soda can. If he followed it up with a shot through only the dummy, it'd have similar results to the second 5.56. In a house, you're also not likely shooting through 2 sheets of drywall and then an additional exterior wall in 8" of depth. You'll have the face drywall, a few inches of space, the back drywall, a few to a lot of feet of space, then the other wall. Having the space between the initial contact and the next wall bleeds off lot of energy for something that may be tumbling/fragmenting. You can further mitigate the overpenetration concern(without sacrificing much terminal effect) by using a mid-weight soft point bullet in 5.56. They more reliably fragment while still penetrating sufficiently.

    The hostage shot thing is odd, in that most people aren't shooting beyond 30'...with most probably being in the 10' range where a flitecontrol wad keeps the load to around an inch or so. The overpenetration of buck is still a concern, that can be mitigated a bit with low-recoil buck loads, or dropping down to 1bk. Buckshot does scatter after hitting something, while still retaining mass(penetration) of each pellet...so concern for people in the background is amplified a bit for buck. All the other negatives of a 12 ga(especially a pump or side by side), are pretty spot on.

    There's also a pretty sizeable difference in trauma created by a 5.56 and a 9mm. In home defense distances, time's a big factor, so causing a lot of trauma in a short amount of time is important. 5.56 just does more damage than 9mm period. I don't get why you'd choose 9mm over a 5.56 when my above points about penetration are considered. With a pcc and 5.56 ar, you're basically just ballistically neutering it to drop to a handgun cartridge while keeping all other handling characteristics roughly the same. It's loud, but all unsuppressed guns are loud....and having all the neighbors calling the cops because they hear gunshots might not be that bad of a thing.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Two pieces of drywall stacked together is Not the same as actual interior wall with air space inbetween .
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Two pieces of drywall stacked together is Not the same as actual interior wall with air space inbetween .
    Did you see the wall with studs and siding behind those 2 pieces? It was even constructed with tvek for a moisture barrier.

    Anyone can easily say "well a round can hit a cabinet with soup cans in it", or whatever.

    I think the point is that it was different self defense modes/rounds being tested against each other with 1 consistent media. Which is as close to shooting from inside "a house" as possible. Without shooting from inside a fully furnished house and a human being.

    The video is best home defense weapon and not round.

    I was hesitant to post this video because I knew it would be parsed down to the molecular minutae of stats, much like the ad nauseum arguments in BMW motorcycle forums about whether SAE or synthetic is better for your engine.

    It's a basic video from a guy who has shot more people from inside a dwelling than the combined total of ZERO of all members commenting on this video.
    I think a pistol caliber carbine is probably the best for home defense, for the average person. Well, for those who aren't that great with a pistol. Like he said in the very first part.

    Now, where's that "bird shot is great" thread again that I have to get to. :)
     

    willtill

    The Dude Abides
    MDS Supporter
    May 15, 2007
    24,337
    Did you see the wall with studs and siding behind those 2 pieces? It was even constructed with tvek for a moisture barrier.

    Anyone can easily say "well a round can hit a cabinet with soup cans in it", or whatever.

    I think the point is that it was different self defense modes/rounds being tested against each other with 1 consistent media. Which is as close to shooting from inside "a house" as possible. Without shooting from inside a fully furnished house and a human being.

    The video is best home defense weapon and not round.

    I was hesitant to post this video because I knew it would be parsed down to the molecular minutae of stats, much like the ad nauseum arguments in BMW motorcycle forums about whether SAE or synthetic is better for your engine.

    It's a basic video from a guy who has shot more people from inside a dwelling than the combined total of ZERO of all members commenting on this video.
    I think a pistol caliber carbine is probably the best for home defense, for the average person. Well, for those who aren't that great with a pistol. Like he said in the very first part.

    Now, where's that "bird shot is great" thread again that I have to get to. :)

    Synthetic is better. Everyone knows that.
     

    dist1646

    Ultimate Member
    May 1, 2012
    8,758
    Eldersburg
    That was some pretty thick drywall compared to some of the recent builds I have seen. I would have liked to have seen a test with birdshot at that close range, especially since the load didn't have very much dispersion before impacting the dummy. I think more homes will have birdshot than buckshot. Interesting result, the first rounds with BH 77's. Like him, I didn't expect to see the resulting lack of penetration, even if it hit the stud.
     

    inkd

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 4, 2009
    7,512
    Ridge
    No way! .40 S&W!

    How can we have a real discussion about what is best without having the .45acp mentioned?

    My brothers lawn guy has a friend who has a cousin who's next door neighbors great uncle was a DeltaSealRanger and served with Dick Marcinko in the Mekong Delta and saw a Viet Cong get shot in the pinky toe with a 1911 and the exit wound tore his arm off.
     

    Sealion

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    May 19, 2016
    2,710
    Balto Co
    Thanks for the post Blaster. As much as I want to get all fancy, his experience says keep it simple (a good example is his EDC video). And I agree with his justification of his selecting an "expensive" MPX as home defense. Cost shouldn't be a consideration when it comes to the safety of your family. Although, I'm still leaning towards a Banshee, I will give the MPX a hard look.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    How can we have a real discussion about what is best without having the .45acp mentioned?

    My brothers lawn guy has a friend who has a cousin who's next door neighbors great uncle was a DeltaSealRanger and served with Dick Marcinko in the Mekong Delta and saw a Viet Cong get shot in the pinky toe with a 1911 and the exit wound tore his arm off.
    I heard of something like this happening once...scared hell out of me.

    On the video:

    If the choice to be illustrated is "weapon" and not "cartridge", why would we test penetration/expansion?

    Changing cartridges can change the whole aspect of the demonstrated terminal performance. A shotgun loaded with smaller #1 or #4 buckshot (NOT birdshot)...a 9mm with 147s...an AR with lighter, frangible (HP/SP) bullets.

    Standardized penetration media would have helped clarify things too. Some bullets encountered materials other bullets did not. How can they be compared?

    I guess the military mindset dictated some decisions here. I don't see the limited expansion MK262 (77 grain SMK) being the ideal close range defensive round for an AR-15, even though many military people find it a 'go to'. If it did not exhibit limited expansion, the Hague Convention rules would not allow it. Long range, yes. In place of M-855 in any circumstance, of course. Compared to the myriad of good commercial ammo INTENDED to expand...not so much. I'd suggest that the "overpenetration test" would have gone much differently if a nice 45 or 50 grain HP or soft point had been used.

    Still an interesting video. Thank you for posting.
     

    Batt816

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 1, 2018
    4,087
    Eastern Shore
    How can we have a real discussion about what is best without having the .45acp mentioned?

    My brothers lawn guy has a friend who has a cousin who's next door neighbors great uncle was a DeltaSealRanger and served with Dick Marcinko in the Mekong Delta and saw a Viet Cong get shot in the pinky toe with a 1911 and the exit wound tore his arm off.

    It happened, I was there!! :lol2::lol2:
     
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