Old Pump Gun Identification - Who knows Old Shotguns?

trickg · Apr 3, 2019

So this pic popped up on a FB Page dedicated to the history of the county I grew up in. The third guy from the left is my Great Grandfather, and the first two gentlemen from the left are my great uncles.

What I'm hoping for is possibly some help getting better year estimate than "Early 1900s". Given that I know that the guy to the far left was born in 1879 and he looks thirty-ish, I'm guessing that this pic was taken sometime around 1910-1915.

With that said, I noticed that the second guy from the left, Pete O'Brien, is holding a pump shotgun, but I don't know enough about pump shotguns to come up with a model. Gotta figure, if it's something like a Winchester Model 12, then it has to be after 1912, but I suspect that it might be a Winchester 1897.

I realize that the pic isn't high quality - sorry about that, it's the best I can do.

budman93 · Apr 3, 2019

Looking at where the mag tube meets the receiver it looks like an 1897 to me.

38super · Apr 3, 2019

Looks like a 1897 Winchester from the trigger group, picture is not that clear.

trickg · Apr 3, 2019

I figured after doing a really quick Google-fu that it might be. Did the 1897 have a metal cap on the pump forend?

budman93 · Apr 3, 2019

I don't know if they all did but i have seen it on some

Uncle Duke · Apr 3, 2019

38super said:
Looks like a 1897 Winchester from the trigger group, picture is not that clear.

Thinking you're right. Appears more rounded than the Model 12.

tallen702 · Apr 3, 2019

I'll compare to my 1897 take-down when I get home, but that's what I'm suspecting it is (not a take-down necessarily, but an 1897.)

bigjohn · Apr 3, 2019

Marlin 1896

K31 · Apr 3, 2019

AK-47

For the media.

trickg · Apr 3, 2019

You guys are awesome! Thanks! Although it doesn't really help me date the photo - the guns are clearly not "new" for the period - it at least helps to figure out a bit more about the photo. To me, the way the mag tube is set up, it looks a lot like a Model 1887 Winchester, but I'm just a hack when it comes to that kind of thing.

tallen702 · Apr 3, 2019

Okay, so here's my 1897 from 1913 to compare

While the overall profile is definitely very 1897 like, my only concern is the fact that the forward magazine tube band in the photo appears to be rounded while all 1897s that I've come across have been flat. I even scrolled through tons of pictures in a Google Image Search looking for an outlier, and even consulted Numrich to see if there was ever a type of barrel and magazine connector band that was rounded but couldn't find any evidence. Same goes for the Model 12 AFAIK

The company that DID use rounded bands like that was Remington. Their model 17 has a front band like that in addition to the blade-type support at the front of the cap which would take up the distance between the band and your man's hand up there. That said, they didn't start producing the model 17 until 1921, which I think is probably too late for this photo.

So, it's either an odd duck of a 1897 or Model 12, or it's a Rem 17 and the photo looks older than it is. I can't find any others that resemble it.

trickg · Apr 4, 2019

Tallen, I think your post/pics pretty much clinches that it's a Winchester model 1887. I've looked at other pics of old shotguns, but nothing else comes close in terms of proportions - the barrel band does look rounded in the original pic, but it's not a high quality pic - I've essentially got a cell-phone camera pic of the original photo, and that photo is at least 100 years old. Many other old shotgun models have a lug that extends down from the barrel to hold the magazine tube, so the fact that this one has a barrel band, and that the proportions are right, to me that pretty much sews it up.

Also, I think my Dad may still have had that old Model 1897 - I didn't know there was a possibility that it was a family heirloom gun or else I'd have kept her from selling it.

-Z/28- · Apr 4, 2019

tallen702 said:
Okay, so here's my 1897 from 1913 to compare

While the overall profile is definitely very 1897 like, my only concern is the fact that the forward magazine tube band in the photo appears to be rounded while all 1897s that I've come across have been flat. I even scrolled through tons of pictures in a Google Image Search looking for an outlier, and even consulted Numrich to see if there was ever a type of barrel and magazine connector band that was rounded but couldn't find any evidence. Same goes for the Model 12 AFAIK

The company that DID use rounded bands like that was Remington. Their model 17 has a front band like that in addition to the blade-type support at the front of the cap which would take up the distance between the band and your man's hand up there. That said, they didn't start producing the model 17 until 1921, which I think is probably too late for this photo.

So, it's either an odd duck of a 1897 or Model 12, or it's a Rem 17 and the photo looks older than it is. I can't find any others that resemble it.

It's definitely not a Remington model 17. In the pictures I see of Remingtons, the forend rests all the way forward against the band at the end of the tube. The gun in the OPs photo has the forend a few inches short of the band, which is consistent with an 1897.

FrankOceanXray · Apr 4, 2019

K31 said:
GLOCK AK-47

If you can't figure it out, it's a ghost gun.

Or ask MSP for the fired shell casing and registry?

Anyhow, great photo.

tallen702 · Apr 4, 2019

My best guess is that it's early production due to the trigger guard and band being slightly out of norm with my somewhat younger model. Perhaps they flattened the bands later as a cost-saving measure? Who knows. The 1897 went through so many iterations anything is possible, but as before, my gut feeling is that we're all on the same page and all have the right answer of it being a 1897.

jimbobborg · Apr 4, 2019

Could be a 93. 87s were lever action.

3paul10 · Apr 4, 2019

It's a glock.

Cochise · Apr 4, 2019

Looks like a Stevens 520 to me, A John Browning design from the 1910's

tallen702 · Apr 4, 2019

Cochise said:
Looks like a Stevens 520 to me, A John Browning design from the 1910's

520s and 620s don't have a magazine tube band.

Dodahdude · Apr 4, 2019

Not to interrupt the conversation but my grandparents are from north and east of Matfield Green and are buried at the family cemetery east of Strong City west of Emporia. Small world.

OK. back to shotguns........

Old Pump Gun Identification - Who knows Old Shotguns?

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