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Old July 25th, 2020, 09:04 AM #21
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If i had to use a 5.56x45, I would get the 62gr Barnes.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 10:42 AM #22
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If time becomes an issue, There are plenty of commercially available loadings for hog hunting. They come with proven ballistics and proven results, which will help cut down on development time. Just a thought. If it were me, I'd try and stick with the solids, but either way, a good alternative to working up a load if time becomes an issue.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 11:41 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
This is absolutely correct and goes with preventing suffering, and I did spell that out.OK, then satisfy your 'primary consideration'. Where are we now? Back to having a bullet appropriate for the task at hand and not creating unnecessary suffering.

FMJs are not allowed for hunting (here) for a very good reason. Target points on arrows (same effect) are also not allowed for hunting (here), for exactly the same, and very good, reason. It is quite clearly inhumane to shoot animals with something that will not kill humanely.

I know they're "just pigs" and I know they are serious pests, but they are living beings. If we are to take lives, we DO owe it to the animal to do so with minimal suffering.

Creating unnecessary suffering is wrong. It is completely unacceptable and NOT what conscientious hunters stand for. When I see comments condoning FMJs because they are cheap and that pigs don't matter, my feelings here are approaching 'shame' for ethical hunters everywhere.

I know I said above that I wouldn't debate this, but I was wrong. This has to be said, apparently... Criminey, I can't even believe we are having this discussion. WTF?
I'll tell you where were at, I think you just offered a solution before taking an adequate time to consider the number one rule of game taking by bloviating on bullet selection before assessing the basic principal of a solid shooter foundation before attempting a shot.

Now your are trying to back peddle and cast doubt on others by using some sort of internal immunization to protect your image by projecting your failure to adequately address a secondary condition (issuance) on an open forum.

Also, Steel tipped arrows, Broad-heads and established regulations for what "We do Here" are irrelevant to the conversation. For all practical purposes the OP may be permitted to use metal clad bullets per established regulation. He may even be permitted to do so by local ordinance for a private landowner or nuisance pest control/environmental policy. Do you think that the provider is providing an immoral service based on your feelings rather than local sentiment, code and best practice?

I also believe your experience in the slaughter of animals or preparing them for sale is incomplete and not entirely based on a continued foundation of actual experience for providing sources of meat to the public or Federal Government. If it was, you would be more familiar with the practice of stunning animals with electric shock or captive bolt method used by many professional suppliers.

Using firearms in an ag environment could not only be dangerous to other workers, but interfere with inspection of meats due to transmission of blood through surrounding tissue via blood vessels resulting in an inferior product not to mention metallic fragments that affect product suitability.

If you think for one minute that you have the sole responsibility, or the moral superiority to determine what is right and what is wrong when it comes to dispatching game animals you are also sadly mistaken.

The idea that an animal such as a feral hog, or even a majestic big game animal has a more acute sensibility to pain and suffering vs one or the other whether it be through a gunshot, auto motive collision or some other unintended consequences is preposterous and completely unfounded in rational thinking.

Lastly, do not, even, try to attempt to single myself or even others who have participated in this thread out unnecessarily as inconsiderate or a shameful hunters based on your speculation and wild method of post making.

That is not only rude, inconsiderate but yet another unsubstantiated opinion founded in speculation, not fact or actual knowledge underpinned by feelings or your emotion.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 01:40 PM #24
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I see we'll have to just agree to disagree, but I will address your points here.
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Originally Posted by Doco Overboard View Post
I'll tell you where were at, I think you just offered a solution before taking an adequate time to consider the number one rule of game taking by bloviating on bullet selection before assessing the basic principal of a solid shooter foundation before attempting a shot.
Think what you like. I had adequate time to consider my answer and will stick by it. Nothing I have said here is contradictory to my original post.
Quote:
Now your are trying to back peddle and cast doubt on others by using some sort of internal immunization to protect your image by projecting your failure to adequately address a secondary condition (issuance) on an open forum.
Hahaha, my 'image' is not at stake here. My wild method of post making should have demonstrated that to you. Again, no 'back peddle' to it, I have said nothing contradictory to my original post.

Of course I recognize placement is paramount. I mentioned if/when the hunter places the bullet correctly before you did. Once we provide that placement, the bullet has a job to do and should be designed to do that job. Nothing new there.
Quote:
Also, Steel tipped arrows, Broad-heads and established regulations for what "We do Here" are irrelevant to the conversation.
The reference to arrows with target points (non-broadheads) is indeed relevant, because they have the same "stab it with a pencil" effect as FMJs, especially .22 FMJs. They are ineffective for game and universally (I had thought) considered inhumane for taking game.
Quote:
For all practical purposes the OP may be permitted to use metal clad bullets per established regulation. He may even be permitted to do so by local ordinance for a private landowner or nuisance pest control/environmental policy. Do you think that the provider is providing an immoral service based on your feelings rather than local sentiment, code and best practice?
While what is legal is not always moral and what is moral is not always legal, physics is unavoidable.

I am not judging the morality of anything here except intentionally using the wrong bullet for the job, when good and proper bullets are both available AND proven to be more effective. "More effective" = "quicker demise" = "less pain" of whatever degree we might imagine.

As an ethical hunter, we should do everything we can to provide a quick, humane kill. Nothing emotional or arbitrary about that.
Quote:
I also believe your experience in the slaughter of animals or preparing them for sale is incomplete and not entirely based on a continued foundation of actual experience for providing sources of meat to the public or Federal Government. If it was, you would be more familiar with the practice of stunning animals with electric shock or captive bolt method used by many professional suppliers.

Using firearms in an ag environment could not only be dangerous to other workers, but interfere with inspection of meats due to transmission of blood through surrounding tissue via blood vessels resulting in an inferior product not to mention metallic fragments that affect product suitability.
Now, this IS a contradiction to YOUR original post addressed to me. Previous (intentionally misleading?) statement by you:

"Ill keep that in mind next time we kill some before they hit the meat shop walk in".

Why did you even bring up killing livestock in this thread if you aren't shooting them? What does electric shock or captive bolt euthanization even have to do with any of this? Nothing...

In the context of this discussion, you clearly implied you were using FMJs to euthanize livestock, but it turns out you weren't. Should I say "back peddle" and "incomplete" too?

I have killed livestock with firearms. I grew up on a farm and we routinely killed steers for our own freezers with a rifle using bullets that barely expanded. "Metallic fragments"? Not unless you eat the brain. Placing a .22 bullet squarely between the eyes of a confined steer at 2 feet is a lot different than hunting, but I see now that's not your experience.

I have also put down injured livestock, and because of complications with motion, angles and penetration, I used a centerfire rifle with expanding hunting ammo.
Quote:
If you think for one minute that you have the sole responsibility, or the moral superiority to determine what is right and what is wrong when it comes to dispatching game animals you are also sadly mistaken.
Of course I don't have any monopoly on morality here, but one does not need moral superiority to point out the humane way to approach the killing of an animal, something thought to be common knowledge.
Quote:
The idea that an animal such as a feral hog, or even a majestic big game animal has a more acute sensibility to pain and suffering vs one or the other whether it be through a gunshot, auto motive collision or some other unintended consequences is preposterous and completely unfounded in rational thinking.
I see that you're not getting it. Expanding bullets are designed to create a great enough degree of trauma to QUICKLY kill the animal. No one said anything about any "degrees of pain" that you project. The idea is that an animal shot with an FMJ will likely not expire as quickly as one shot with an expanding bullet. Whatever degree of pain they DO feel is shortened as much as possible by an ethical hunter. Is it too morally superior to point that out?

A .22 FMJ is about as lame as it gets. By virtue of participating in crop damage control, I have seen a whitetail walk off after being hit through the ribs at 50 yards with M193, just stepped into the corn, leaving no blood trail, not dead, not recovered.

An example was given above, using a .45 ACP, compared to a hard cast .44, and BOTH of these are bigger at impact than even an expanding .22 slug is likely to expand in total.
Quote:
Lastly, do not, even, try to attempt to single myself or even others who have participated in this thread out unnecessarily as inconsiderate or a shameful hunters based on your speculation and wild method of post making.
Whoa...YOU quoted ME, so don't complain when I "single you out" when I actually responded to you. You ASKED to be singled out, and now that you have been, you're still dissatisfied.

I am quite happy with my wild method of post making too, and will continue.
Quote:
That is not only rude, inconsiderate but yet another unsubstantiated opinion founded in speculation, not fact or actual knowledge underpinned by feelings or your emotion.
I'm sorry if I seem rude to you. It is the method or the message?

I can probably work on the method, but the message is the same as my very first post on this topic: Using FMJs on game animals is inhumane, regardless of what we would like to believe, or how much appropriate bullets cost, or what we have a gazillion of in the basement, or however many one might throw away trying to hit an animal at all.

Again, I cannot even believe that this has become a topic of debate and has evoked such a defensive response; whether one should use expanding bullets on game. Of course they should, regardless of what is "allowed".

I have said what what there is to say and am done here. Say what you will, think what you will. I hope have wonderful day.
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Old July 25th, 2020, 03:29 PM #25
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I see you had plenty of time to make an attempt to invalidate the points herein discussed. Seems like an overly long and weak response in that regard.

But obviously you have not taken the time to investigate the legal means of dispatching pigs in Texas. Or... maybe you did however the topic is immaterial to me at this point. Are you going to go on a crusade and educate Texas ranchers?

Again, Ill ask a simple question, Who made you the authority on ethics regarding the ethical taking of feral pigs?

What superior intellect and moral superiority do you posses that allows you to determine the amount of suffering an animal experiences when it is either humanely or inhumanely dispatched by means of a gunshot?

I can tell you this, the authorities in Texas know when they establish yearly game regs. Hunting (if that's want you want to call it) from an aircraft is illegal.
Exotic or pest species on private land are subject to the landowners discretion.
Does that make it right? Not for me to decide and Im not going to use feelings or local sentiment where we reside to accurately gauge how to conduct one's self on an aerial feral pig hunt in Texas. If I don't agree with the method I dont go -simple as that. And I dont for that matter.

My thoughts are, you really don't know or choose not to say.

Have you killed a lot of pigs with FMJ's to know they are an ineffective equivalent to other bullet technology when fired from a helicopter?

Having such high moral values and ethics could you even speak to any degree of certainty on the matter?


I used to enjoy reading your posts for the information they contained and even respected and admired your thoughts on additional topics that I share the same interest in.
I believed you had a particular influence that was positive in nature an meaningful.
I still believe that to a certain extent. But make no mistake, if you think your the smartest guy or that last word in a room full of about 500 of them.
Your dead nuts wrong and you would do better to realize that.

Just so you know, I'm having a great day and enjoying myself thoroughly. Maybe we can chat in person if you see fit to meet me and my companion for a nice lunch in town or something.

Cheers
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