Post-Ban HBAR for the 1 MOA All-Day Challenge?

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  • pre64hunter

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2010
    642
    Harford County
    I have a 16" COLT HBar barrel

    I have a 16" COLT HBar barrel marked C MP 1/9 HBAR 5.56 NATO, not threaded, if this helps, it's a couple years old, post 2013 and MD compliant. I'm not sure of the price but it will be reasonable. Also with it the gas tube, tower, Delta ring and handguard. Actually it belongs to my son and for whatever the reasons when he changed barrel lengths or something you also have to change the other parts because they're different lengths. I'm not an AR man, more Winchester but I have a New Colt C.A.R. Elite $1300 and HBar flat top like new $1000 for sale on ArmsList and will have this barrel and the Colts with me for sale at the Bel Air Gun Show February 2-4.
     

    rooster

    Rebel looking for a cause
    Aug 1, 2010
    141
    Eldersburg, MD
    A 16" barrel out to 200m at sub MOA? I don't know. I think that's asking a lot from a carbine.

    Les Baer Custom makes a 20" and says: "Like our Super Varmint Model, our new AR .223 Super Match Model is built with the same care and precision as a super-accurate bolt action bench rest rifle...but it's semi-auto! We guarantee 1/2 MOA groups on this superior target rifle." Baer is well known for the accuracy of his guns. I have a .308 from him and it's awesome! (The only downside to Baer's products is they're picky eaters.)

    I bought a 20" match stainless steel fluted barrel upper from J and T Distributing, Winchester, KY (1-859-745-1757). I put it on an LMT match lower (trigger) and shoot it with and without a suppressor out to 200m. I can darn near put 2 in the same hole. And, unlike Les Baer, mine's not picky about what it eats. - The twist is 1:8 and I find 62gr factory loads gives me the most bang for the buck. (Not brand specific. = Doesn't require Federal Match.)

    Any upper that does NOT have a bayonet lug and the barrel does NOT have a notch for the grenade launcher AND the barrel is NOT a "thin" or light barrel meets MDSP regs. - Any good match upper (target or sniper models) won't have that stuff anyway. That stuff serves no purpose. (It's just supposed to make you look cool.)

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited:

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    A 16" barrel out to 200m at sub MOA? I don't know. I think that's asking a lot from a carbine.

    Les Baer Custom makes a 20" and says: "Like our Super Varmint Model, our new AR .223 Super Match Model is built with the same care and precision as a super-accurate bolt action bench rest rifle...but it's semi-auto! We guarantee 1/2 MOA groups on this superior target rifle." Baer is well known for the accuracy of his guns. I have a .308 from him and it's awesome! (The only downside to Baer's products is they're picky eaters.)

    I bought a 20" match stainless steel fluted barrel upper from J and T Distributing, Winchester, KY (1-859-745-1757). I put it on an LMT match lower (trigger) and shoot it with and without a suppressor out to 200m. I can darn near put 2 in the same hole. And, unlike Les Baer, mine's not picky about what it eats.

    Any upper (barrel) that does NOT have a bayonet lug and a notch for the grenade launcher AND is not a "thin" barrel meets MDSP regs. - Any good match upper (target or sniper models) won't have that stuff because that stuff serves no purpose. (It just looks cool.)

    Good luck.

    There's not really a reason a 16" barrel wouldn't be as accurate as a 20" at 200 yards. Given a barrel thickness, the shorter barrel would actually be stiffer, with less motion in resonance. There's a bit of velocity loss, but nothing that really matters at 200 yards.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    See, now that is a reasonable, believable group. About 2" or so at 50yds? So 4-5" at 100yds, which I believe is the original military specification for precision from a rack-grade M16A2 with green tip.

    You probably shot to the maximum mechanical precision of that rifle. :thumbsup:

    If the maximum mechanical precision of that rifle is 2" at 50 yards, that is 4" at 100 yards and 4 MOA. Essentially, 8" at 200 yards and barely MOD (Minute of Deer) at 200 yards. I would throw that barrel and/or the ammo in the trash can if 4 MOA is its maximum mechanical precision. I am betting that BKuether can get better groups from that rifle than 2" at 50 yards if he is using an optic, a benchrest, and good ammo.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    Faxton says "heavy fluted" barrel. How can the fluting of the barrel be heavy if the barrel is not heavy? Heavy fluting in a light barrel creates holes!! Of course, heavy fluting in a heavy barrel makes the barrel light(er).

    Remember, the barrel must be stamped HBAR or Heavy, or advertised as such. I can confirm that I have seen an e-mail response in a thread on here from Faxon stating that the barrel isn't heavy, the fluting is heavy. It makes no sense to me, but why screw around with it when Engage gets White Oak barrels in and they have HBAR stamped, carved, imprinted on the barrel. Think that is the route I would go if I was building a post FSA2013 AR-15. Just wish they had them for an SBR. lol
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Remember, the barrel must be stamped HBAR or Heavy, or advertised as such. I can confirm that I have seen an e-mail response in a thread on here from Faxon stating that the barrel isn't heavy, the fluting is heavy. It makes no sense to me, but why screw around with it when Engage gets White Oak barrels in and they have HBAR stamped, carved, imprinted on the barrel. Think that is the route I would go if I was building a post FSA2013 AR-15. Just wish they had them for an SBR. lol

    And they have also posted the opposite elsewhere. You can drive yourself bat shit crazy if you believe everything on the internet. Esp about MD gun laws.
     

    rooster

    Rebel looking for a cause
    Aug 1, 2010
    141
    Eldersburg, MD
    I agree! Any gun that boasts 4MOA is a door stop. No manufacturer would dare claim that. Who would buy it?

    Now, maybe after a night out closing the bar, and suffering from severe tremors, while shooting hand held, 4MOA might be considered "OK". But I don't think even then it could be called "good."
     

    rooster

    Rebel looking for a cause
    Aug 1, 2010
    141
    Eldersburg, MD
    I think there are 3 barrels you can get on an AR-15: Thin (aka: light or pencil), Heavy, and notched (for the grenade launcher). I don't believe you can flute the thin barrel (not enough material to flute... If there was enough material it would not be a "thin/light/pencil" barrel). Nor can you flute the notched barrel (you can't flute the notch). So only the heavy barrel can be fluted. If this is true, then all fluted barrels are, by default, Heavy.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,459
    MoCo
    I think there are 3 barrels you can get on an AR-15: Thin (aka: light or pencil), Heavy, and notched (for the grenade launcher). I don't believe you can flute the thin barrel (not enough material to flute... If there was enough material it would not be a "thin/light/pencil" barrel). Nor can you flute the notched barrel (you can't flute the notch). So only the heavy barrel can be fluted. If this is true, then all fluted barrels are, by default, Heavy.

    That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.

    It is entirely permissible to draft a law that says something intellectually absurd like "for purposes of this statute, the sun rises in the west." Within the context of that statute, if the issue is raised, you would talk about the sun rising in the west. It defies logic, but doing so satisfies the requirements of that particular law. At all other times, you talk about the sun rising in the east.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.

    It is entirely permissible to draft a law that says something intellectually absurd like "for purposes of this statute, the sun rises in the west." Within the context of that statute, if the issue is raised, you would talk about the sun rising in the west. It defies logic, but doing so satisfies the requirements of that particular law. At all other times, you talk about the sun rising in the east.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/TEKTON-...MI3MbAkNLm2AIVjrjACh2WTgX7EAQYASABEgL7rvD_BwE
     

    steves1911

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 2, 2011
    3,026
    On a hill in Wv
    I have 2 "spr" uppers one with a Douglass and ome with a kreiger. Both shoot .5moa consitently. The only difference I can tell between the two is the kreiger is easier to clean and from what everyone tells me will last longer.
     

    sxs

    Senior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2009
    3,377
    Anne Arundel County, MD
    See, now that is a reasonable, believable group. About 2" or so at 50yds? So 4-5" at 100yds, which I believe is the original military specification for precision from a rack-grade M16A2 with green tip.

    You probably shot to the maximum mechanical precision of that rifle. :thumbsup:

    Not necessarily. And that group may be improved by just replacing the trigger (I'm presuming it is a stock milspec trigger.) Maryland compliant barrels must be heavy and Heavy barrels disipate heat better than light barrels reducing shot stringing which opens groups. I have been amazed at how many normal heavy barrel ARs can shoot 1 MOA or at least close to that with the proper ammo and a decent trgger. Furthermore, most people shoot significantly better with a telescopic sight...presuming they use reasonably good technique. Not trying to downsale you from a match barrel by any means...but I have been pretty impressed since I entered the AR world 2 to 3 years ago (when I finally built out my 2 lowers purchased in 2013.) To be sure, one build is with target accuracy in mind although the other is basically just a Windham HBC upper on an Adcor lower built out with CMMG buikd kit with the trigger pull somewhat improved wuth JP springs.
    Recently I just slapped together a PSA 10.5 in pistol upper and pistol lower with a brace in 9mm...just cause I thought it might be neat to teach others on it. After sight in I shot a group around 3/4 in at 50 yds with plain ole AM Eagle 9mm ball. I was shooting off sand bags but was stunned I shot so well with a trigger that is so so at best and simple MBUS sights co witnessing through a cheap Bushnell TRS 25 red dot. My build that is mostly RRA components shoots under an inch at 100 yds with plain Am Eagle 55 gr 5.56 ( it is only a 1 in. 8 twist...haven't tried heavy bullets about 62 gr...but wouldn' t expect optimal performance with > 70 gr. The again...who knows). My point: dont underestimate the potential accuracy of a decent heavy bbl build. I never expected results like I have seen with some of these rifles. For years I expected AR accuracy to be similar or only marginally better than my mini14 ( 3 1/2 to 4" at 100 yds with my best loads). My bolt action Rem 700 Varmint in 223 doesn't shoot appreciably better than my RRA with a match barrel can...and I have to use reloads fireformed to the chamber with meticulous 1 shell at a time loading to acheive that better accuracy). The only truly $hit AR I have shot are a couple pencil barrels with pretty crappy triggers and a pistol length 5.56 owned by a buddy that I couldn't do better than a couple inches at 50 yds using MBUS ...also having a pretty crappy trigger.

    Good luck on your build. Sounds like you are asking the right questions.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.

    Heavy is NOT defined in the law. So your whole first paragraph is incorrect.

    MSP has issued GUIDANCE that if a barrel is marked or advertised heavy, they say it meets the law. But that is NOT in the FSA 2013, nor in case law.

    Yes, I can see the state's attorney arguing that a barrel that is not marked heavy is illegal, when it is heavier and thicker than one that is marked HBAR.

    Yes, if you use a barrel not marked or advertised as heavy, you are at risk of being the test case, but if the profile is truly heavy, I can't see any case against you moving forward.

    But each person has their own risk level.
     

    Slim

    Active Member
    Sep 13, 2015
    489
    HoCo & Worldwide
    Dawdled on this for a year, collecting a few parts here and there, but still haven't purchased a barrel. Leading contender is White Oak Armament:

    https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/16-sdm-barrel-1-7-twist.html I'll email and ask if they can do it without flutes, and what if any dimple is there for a gas block. (I have the Geissele one that came with my forend).

    Also considering this one: https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-hbar-contour-barrel/ based on a few recommendations on MDS.

    I did a search and read a few posts, but does anyone have current experience with that Criterion HBAR? Better yet, both the Criterion and a WOA barrel? Looking at 16"...
     

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