Reloading cost question

Pinecone · Jul 2, 2017

pilot25 said:
This I do find fascinating. I researched this a bit and find the engineering of it all entertaining. Gives me great respect for those who design barrels.

Thank you for pointing me toward the Greenhill Formula

edit: A cursory search leads to heavy debates between this formula and the Miller Twist Rule. Any books you recommend? What about Bryan Litz - Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting?

Brian Litz is probably THE expert in small arms ballistics.

But the bottom line is, the formula's are predictive, but not absolute. Same make and model rifle, with the same twist rate, one will work with XX gr bullets, the other will not work with that same load and needs a lighter bullet.

There is still a lot of art out there.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 2, 2017

External ballistics are fascinating in themselves. But for 99.8% of shooters can be vastly simplified .

Other than a handful of cals that used radically different bullet weights either in different eras, or for very different purposes, industry standard twists are * usually * pretty close.

Bullest are a lot more forgiving of being overstabilized than understabalized.

It's actually Length, not weight per se that effects stability.

pilot25 · Jul 2, 2017

Blacksmith101 said:
You might want to start at the beginning of ballistics research, Franklin Weston Mann. Here is a link that will tell you something about him:
http://triggernometry.us/viewtopic.php?t=2158

And here is a link to a source for his book "The Bullet's Flight From Powder to Target: The Internal and External Ballistics of Small Arms; a Study of Rifle Shooting with the Personal Element Excluded, Disclosing the Cause of the Error at Target", it is the first book listed on this page:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/book-dvd-reviews/free-downloadable-classic-gun-books/

Here is a list of books on ballistics.
A Ballistics Bibliography:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/bibliog.htm

Since I assume you are mostly interested in Exterior Ballistics here is a good
Introduction:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm

Since this started with your AR you might find these interesting; Military reports on ballistics of 5.56 NATO ammunition (note the use of Mann barrels):
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA162133

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA542434

Thank you for spending the time to detail this out. I appreciate it.

Magnumite · Jul 2, 2017

Thought I would add is I started with the Lee Loader. You'll get 50 rounds an hour. You may consider the suggested equipment except get the small inexpensive press Lee makes. $25 greater initial cost, twice the output and much quieter.

4guyz1stool · Jul 2, 2017

pilot25 said:
After watching a bunch of reloading videos on youTube I think you are correct. I started with Hickock45 who makes it look so simple. After 6 more videos I tuned it out.

Regarding cheap ammo; I purchased a rifle with a 1:7 twist which according to the manufacturer works best with 77 grain ammunition. Of course, that is the most expensive. How much "degradation" will I notice using 55 grain in this rifle. I have shot friends rifles before but no real understanding what the difference in bullet weights would mean. Would the manufacturer's understanding of degradation in accuracy be in terms of missing the target by inches or feet or something in between? I'm not shooting matches or anything of the sort. Just having fun shooting targets so if 55 grain is off a little I'm not worried about it but definitely don't want to compromise the integrity of the barrel.

I'd like to save money but I think I'll probably calculate doing some overtime work instead to get the pricier ammunition.

Thanks for all the responses and input.

You can absolutely shoot 55gr out of a 1:7 barrel, but thats the smallest bullet I would shoot at a 1:7. A 77gr has a higher ballistic coefficient so it inherently going to be more accurate at longer ranges than a 55gr.

I would discourage shooting 77gr unless you're shooting long range and you are trying to milk every ounce of accuracy out of your rifle. 55 is perfect for plinking.

yellowfin · Jul 11, 2017

Given that everything else is paid for, loading up a hundred rounds of 165gr SST's in .308 for 50-60c each vs $1.50 factory cost is pretty nice.

Traveler · Jul 11, 2017

Having very accurate rounds for not much money, exceedingly valuable.

Having all the ammo you want when a Democrat was elected and there is no ammo to be found in the stores ..... priceless.

OrbitalEllipses · Jul 12, 2017

Traveler said:
Having all the ammo you want when a Democrat was elected and there is no ammo to be found in the stores ..... priceless.

There was no powder available then either.

Major03 · Jul 12, 2017

What Pinecone and others have said, 55 gr is fine for plinking in most 1:7 rifles. I don't think I'd go much lower than that though.

If you're reloading, keep it on the lower end of your acceptable charges to keep velocities on the lower end. I have a 1:7 SBR that shoots 55 gr Varmageddon SP bullets like a champ...but if I push the velocity too much I occasionally will have the bullets come apart on me in flight. Not a good thing with a suppressor.

pilot25 · Jul 12, 2017

http://www.guns.com/review/gear-review-reloading-on-a-bare-bones-budget-with-the-lee-loader-video/

Just posted on www.guns.com

Traveler · Jul 12, 2017

OrbitalEllipses said:
There was no powder available then either.

I keep all components on hand. The powder did get a little scarce a few months after the pre-loaded ammo did. Plan accordingly.

rnish · Jul 12, 2017

Reloading is something you do because you like it and need or want something special. Reloading takes a fair amount of time and seed money. On sale you can pick up a case of 1000 green tips for about 300 bucks.

pilot25 · Jul 22, 2017

I've been bed ridden for the last few days so I've been doing much more reloading reading among other things. I'm going to take a less ignorant stab at this as I've done a lot more research. If I end up doing it I would have to go whole hog. I calculate $2300 for the progressive press and all the trimmings of equipment. Dillon brand. Yes, I know it can be done cheaper but I look at it as a long term investment and just want a one step process. Load all the necessities and just push and pull the lever till buzzers go off that you are low on supplies. The Dillion website has the ability to "build your own" and calculates the cost.

1000 quantity of 5.56/.223

Information found on midway.com. I didn't shop around as I'm looking for an average.

Bullets (Sierra 77) : $280 Choosing 77 as it is recommended by the manufacturer of my current firearm.
Primers (CCI small rifle): $30
Brass (.223 FAE): $95 each brass used twice
Powder (4 lbs. Hodgon): $88 using an average of 25 grains which is a little less than 4 lbs. I don't have the Sierra reloading manual

Total: Pilot25 custom special = .49 cents per round vs. Black Hills 5.56mm NATO Ammo 77 Grain $1.13 per round. Savings of .64 cents.

Break even round count = 3600 - 4000

I'm guessing I would break even by year 2.

Ok, tear me apart on my new calculations.

PowPow · Jul 22, 2017

Your brass cost is ultimately going to get closer to zero as you go. Two words for you: range pickup. Most here including me would gladly take your used brass after you loaded and shot it twice.

pilot25 · Jul 22, 2017

PowPow said:
Your brass cost is ultimately going to get closer to zero as you go. Two words for you: range pickup. Most here including me would gladly take your used brass after you loaded and shot it twice.

I thought of that too but wanted to make a very high estimate. I have watched a ton of videos on youtube the last couple days and cleaning brass would be the first thing I would cut out of the process if I could. That part of it is really unappealing to me. It would jack up the price per round about 19 cents however. So cutting that isn't really realistic when trying to make it cost effective.

At 49 cents per round for ammunition it's about 17 cents more than what I have currently purchased which is Federal 62 grain. I'm not going to purchase $1+ per round stuff for shooting at the range. Not apples to apples but if I'm going to crank out my own I'm going to try and get as close to the good stuff as I can.

I still don't know if it is worth it but it is interesting nonetheless.

Doitsouthstyle · Jul 22, 2017

As for cleaning brass with this particular set up a dry tumbler I can guess a cleaning cost of less then $.02 around to start off then just a matter of replacing media every so often which can be very inexpensive in bulk. But would be happy to take any used brass off your hands if you choose not to re use.

pilot25 · Jul 22, 2017

Doitsouthstyle said:
But would be happy to take any used brass off your hands if you choose not to re use.

Funny how that is everyone response to brass.

PowPow · Jul 22, 2017

pilot25 said:
Funny how that is everyone response to brass.

It is one of the reloading costs that you have the most power over. Brass is literally laying on the ground at the range waiting for you to pick it up and throw it into a tumbler (wet or dry). That's about as close to free as you get in this life.

DaemonAssassin · Jul 22, 2017

pilot25 said:
I've been bed ridden for the last few days so I've been doing much more reloading reading among other things. I'm going to take a less ignorant stab at this as I've done a lot more research. If I end up doing it I would have to go whole hog. I calculate $2300 for the progressive press and all the trimmings of equipment. Dillon brand. Yes, I know it can be done cheaper but I look at it as a long term investment and just want a one step process. Load all the necessities and just push and pull the lever till buzzers go off that you are low on supplies. The Dillion website has the ability to "build your own" and calculates the cost.

1000 quantity of 5.56/.223

Information found on midway.com. I didn't shop around as I'm looking for an average.

Bullets (Sierra 77) : $280 Choosing 77 as it is recommended by the manufacturer of my current firearm.
Primers (CCI small rifle): $30
Brass (.223 FAE): $95 each brass used twice
Powder (4 lbs. Hodgon): $88 using an average of 25 grains which is a little less than 4 lbs. I don't have the Sierra reloading manual

Total: Pilot25 custom special = .49 cents per round vs. Black Hills 5.56mm NATO Ammo 77 Grain $1.13 per round. Savings of .64 cents.

Break even round count = 3600 - 4000

I'm guessing I would break even by year 2.

Ok, tear me apart on my new calculations.

Since you are nearby, I'll put the offer or there. If you want to get some hands on time to decide if you want to do this, before you jump in headfirst, I'd be willing to do that for you.

pilot25 · Jul 22, 2017

DaemonAssassin said:
Since you are nearby, I'll put the offer or there. If you want to get some hands on time to decide if you want to do this, before you jump in headfirst, I'd be willing to do that for you.

That is very kind of you. Thank you. :beer:

Reloading cost question

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