Go Back   Maryland Shooters > Gun Rights and Legislation > Maryland 2A Issues

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 10th, 2017, 01:20 PM #1
DC-W's Avatar
DC-W DC-W is offline
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 18,672
DC-W DC-W is offline
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DC-W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 18,672
What an appeal to the HPRB looks like

For your viewing pleasure:




Be sure to subscribe to the MSI YouTube page for more
https://www.youtube.com/c/marylandshallissue
DC-W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 02:20 PM #2
Schipperke's Avatar
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
Schipperke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
As nice as the legal argument was by MSI President, the discussion after made no mention it was a determining factor. The atty on HPRB even stated, "Each case stands on it's own merits". More like the Napoleonic code. That tells me that case law isn't anything to rely on at HPRB. Flame away..
Schipperke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 02:33 PM #3
clandestine's Avatar
clandestine clandestine is offline


AR15 Instructor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Glen Burnie, MD
Posts: 32,528
clandestine clandestine is offline


AR15 Instructor
clandestine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Glen Burnie, MD
Posts: 32,528
Well done MSI. Well done.

I did not expect that outcome.
clandestine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 02:39 PM #4
songlaw songlaw is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4
songlaw songlaw is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4
"While Conducting Business"

Congrats on getting the restriction lifted from this particular permit holder!

I have a CCW permit, and have the restriction on my permit, as well. I wrote MSP for a clarification as to what that meant, as I did not want to unknowingly violate the restriction. I got my permit at the end of January 2017, and wrote MSP, prior to the deadline to do so,for a clarification, or, in the alternative, a hearing. I received no response. A couple of months later, I wrote again. Again, no response. I am about to do so again.

I am a solo practice attorney, and "conduct business" 24/7. I have my office phones forwarded to my cell when I leave the office. I often receive phone calls while at dinner, and sometimes, at 2:00 a.m. I go meet clients after-hours. I advertise evenings and weekends. As such, sometimes I meet a client at 9:00 on Tuesday, or 4 p.m. on a Sunday, outside most others' work hours.

It seems to me that, should I get arrested because law enforcement believes that I am acting outside the scope of "conducting business," because of the vagueness of the restriction, I would eventually prevail in court. However, obviously, the goal is to avoid being arrested in the first place.

Has there been any clarification by MSP or any other LEA as to what "conducting business" means?

I appreciate any response.
songlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 03:31 PM #5
Stoveman's Avatar
Stoveman Stoveman is offline
TV Personality
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Cuba on the Chesapeake
Posts: 8,044
Stoveman Stoveman is offline
TV Personality
Stoveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Cuba on the Chesapeake
Posts: 8,044
Well done, but that video needed two more things:


1. More closeups of Ms. Judah

2. More cowbell



__________________
_______________
Proud CCW Cultist
Stoveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 05:56 PM #6
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,460
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,460
As far as I am aware, MSP has not acted to clarify definitions which are central to the exercise of the rights "granted" to the permit holder. Neither have they ever provided a definition of such a concept so basic to their mission as "good and substantial".

Like the restrictions placed on the written word in the middle of the last century regarding "pornography", apparently the MSP can't define it, but they "know it when they see it". Most of the MSP determinations are arbitrary, capricious, and dependent on the mood and attitude of the investigating officer in the LD.

It's challenging to not run afoul of a law that has no generally accepted meaning. It can also be expensive, and life-changing, usually for the worse.

The cynic in me suspects that this situation is intentional, part and parcel of the General Assembly's stance regarding the civil rights of citizens of this Free State. The internal culture of the MSP is also inclined to support their position of issuing the smallest number of permits possible, a classic bureaucratic response: if no permits are issued, no one in the organisation will suffer any consequences from having issued a permit.
__________________
"If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." - Lawrence Ferlinghetti

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” - Philip K. Dick
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 06:19 PM #7
BeoBill's Avatar
BeoBill BeoBill is offline
Crank in the Third Row
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 南馬里蘭州鮑伊
Posts: 12,967
BeoBill BeoBill is offline
Crank in the Third Row
BeoBill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 南馬里蘭州鮑伊
Posts: 12,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by songlaw View Post
Congrats on getting the restriction lifted from this particular permit holder!

I have a CCW permit, and have the restriction on my permit, as well. I wrote MSP for a clarification as to what that meant, as I did not want to unknowingly violate the restriction. I got my permit at the end of January 2017, and wrote MSP, prior to the deadline to do so,for a clarification, or, in the alternative, a hearing. I received no response. A couple of months later, I wrote again. Again, no response. I am about to do so again.

I am a solo practice attorney, and "conduct business" 24/7. I have my office phones forwarded to my cell when I leave the office. I often receive phone calls while at dinner, and sometimes, at 2:00 a.m. I go meet clients after-hours. I advertise evenings and weekends. As such, sometimes I meet a client at 9:00 on Tuesday, or 4 p.m. on a Sunday, outside most others' work hours.

It seems to me that, should I get arrested because law enforcement believes that I am acting outside the scope of "conducting business," because of the vagueness of the restriction, I would eventually prevail in court. However, obviously, the goal is to avoid being arrested in the first place.

Has there been any clarification by MSP or any other LEA as to what "conducting business" means?

I appreciate any response.
I think you have a shot. Others have had their restrictions lifted for situations like yours. I'll let others more knowing advise you on the process. And bear in mind, as always, YMMV.
__________________
Formerly "The Pitbull from OSD Policy"
To err is human. To forgive is not SAC policy.
“Those who beat their arms into plows will plow for those who don’t.”

Clint Eastwood: “I tried being reasonable, I didn’t like it”
BeoBill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 06:28 PM #8
CypherPunk's Avatar
CypherPunk CypherPunk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,217
Images: 8
CypherPunk CypherPunk is offline
Senior Member
CypherPunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,217
Images: 8
What an appeal to the HPRB looks like

Handgun permit holders commit less crime than police officers.
Permit holders are just looking for a fair, objective permit approval process and a clear understanding of what the laws are they need to abide by.
__________________

NEW 2017 TRAINING SCHEDULE CLICK HERE!
MD FIREARMS Wiki & FAQ CLICK HERE!

Last edited by CypherPunk; August 10th, 2017 at 08:27 PM.
CypherPunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2017, 11:29 PM #9
montoya32's Avatar
montoya32 montoya32 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fallston, MD
Posts: 10,720
Images: 22
montoya32 montoya32 is offline
Senior Member
montoya32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fallston, MD
Posts: 10,720
Images: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC-W View Post
For your viewing pleasure:




Be sure to subscribe to the MSI YouTube page for more
https://www.youtube.com/c/marylandshallissue
DISCLAIMER: This is by no means a dig at Mr. Pennack. He is brilliant and hold more knowledge in his pinkie than I will ever achieve.

Something struck me. The board allowed the "expert witness" to speak and testify, but when I myself was asked by an applicant to accompany him into closed session, because the SP was afraid of their secret recipe being broadcast to the world, I was told I could not speak in support of the applicant.


__________________
Words and opinions on this forum are mine and mine alone and do not represent the thoughts, stances or views of the company I am affiliated with.
Tim Montoya
Realtor
443-463-3592 cell
www.themarylandrealestateblog.com
www.allhomes4me.com
www.whatsupharford.com

<a href=http://www.facebook.com/timmontoyarealtor target=_blank>http://www.facebook.com/timmontoyarealtor</a>
montoya32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 08:02 AM #10
Schipperke's Avatar
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
Schipperke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by montoya32 View Post
DISCLAIMER: This is by no means a dig at Mr. Pennack. He is brilliant and hold more knowledge in his pinkie than I will ever achieve.

Something struck me. The board allowed the "expert witness" to speak and testify, but when I myself was asked by an applicant to accompany him into closed session, because the SP was afraid of their secret recipe being broadcast to the world, I was told I could not speak in support of the applicant.


You are not a lawyer, can't practice or argue law. Legum spelled out what a witness really is. I've seen expert witnesses, but all went through 30+ minutes of challenge before qualified as an expert if they had no previous admission as an expert on "x" to cite. Boards like this are fast and loose to say the least. Going pro se , then representing an attorney as an expert witness is interesting. Note Hollman, "I'll consider it for whatever it is worth". That was no endorsement as accepting the testimony as expert. Hollman also was shrewd during discussion before ruling not to mention any of Pennak's argument as a factor in his decision.
Schipperke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 08:38 AM #11
44man's Avatar
44man 44man is offline
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
44man 44man is offline
member
44man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
I enjoyed the video immensely and I am glad the board sided with the permit holder.

I still question how this helps the $15 hour ditch digger in md to get an unrestricted permit using self defense as g and s. the msp ld scheme is still for those with enough clout, money and time to get a permit.
__________________
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

NRA life member
Va ccw
Fla ccw
MSI
44man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 08:53 AM #12
cool_t_1 cool_t_1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: AA County MD
Posts: 50
cool_t_1 cool_t_1 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: AA County MD
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44man View Post
I enjoyed the video immensely and I am glad the board sided with the permit holder.

I still question how this helps the $15 hour ditch digger in md to get an unrestricted permit using self defense as g and s. the msp ld scheme is still for those with enough clout, money and time to get a permit.
I thought the same thing. I believe that any successful overturning is a move in the right direction. As the ball keeps rolling these victories will pave the way for those who do not have the clout. Once enough unrestricted permits are out there hopefully those people start pushing for the ones who do not have one. Have to start somewhere.
cool_t_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 09:08 AM #13
44man's Avatar
44man 44man is offline
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
44man 44man is offline
member
44man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by cool_t_1 View Post
I thought the same thing. I believe that any successful overturning is a move in the right direction. As the ball keeps rolling these victories will pave the way for those who do not have the clout. Once enough unrestricted permits are out there hopefully those people start pushing for the ones who do not have one. Have to start somewhere.
don't get me wrong, I am glad a few permits and a few of them as unrestricted are getting thru and I am grateful at those who are fighting the fight that way. but the few dozen that get permits while Hogan is governor wont make a hill of beans as soon as we get stuck with a dem a couple years from now and those permits will likely not get renewed. I find that a shame but I can se it happening. if the board was just issuing unrestricted permits as fast as they are hearing cases it still couldn't issue more than 400 until a dem gets in and puts a stop to it and that wont be enough to turn things around (8 cases twice a month for two years + or -). my math may be off some but even if it were a year off 600 permits wouldn't do it.

I just believe Hogan should tell pallozi to accept self defense as g and s and let frosh sue and then let the mga explain to all Marylanders why they don't want us defending ourselves.

but alas this is but a pipe dream.

but I will still do what I can my way and I am grateful to those doing it their way, its just agonizing to see so little happening.
__________________
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

NRA life member
Va ccw
Fla ccw
MSI
44man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 09:23 AM #14
Gambler's Avatar
Gambler Gambler is offline
¿Got Freedom?
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Parkville
Posts: 3,320
Gambler Gambler is offline
¿Got Freedom?
Gambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Parkville
Posts: 3,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schipperke View Post
As nice as the legal argument was by MSI President, the discussion after made no mention it was a determining factor. The atty on HPRB even stated, "Each case stands on it's own merits". More like the Napoleonic code. That tells me that case law isn't anything to rely on at HPRB. Flame away..
According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
__________________
MSI Secretary - Join Us, and stand up for your rights!
SAF Life Member
NRA Member
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
MD Qualified Handgun Instructor - PM me to inquire about free HQL training!
Gambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 09:45 AM #15
boundlessdyad's Avatar
boundlessdyad boundlessdyad is online now
boundlessdyad
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: HoCo
Posts: 15,362
boundlessdyad boundlessdyad is online now
boundlessdyad
boundlessdyad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: HoCo
Posts: 15,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
Before this board, yes. At a different time in the future with a different governor I can see many unrestricted renewals either failing or having restrictions applied. I doubt a dem governor would try to stop issuance of all handgun permits but I can totally see the restrictions coming back with full force and the existence of a HPRB board made up of folks like we had under O' Malley.
boundlessdyad is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 10:01 AM #16
Schipperke's Avatar
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
Schipperke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 11,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
Show me a decision citing that as basis. If that is anywhere in the record as a determining factor, how could the HPRB not consider this their own case law, applicable to every appellant pointing to a previous overturn on that basis. If you find that basis quoted in a decison, please post it so others can waltz in without spinning the prize wheel by repeating previous testimony and see if it sticks for them. It's a kangaroo court that is still with us due to the late entrance of a Bill last session to kill it. The board has the power to overturn MSP w/o people making the trek to Crownsville. Why have they surrendered that?
Schipperke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 10:44 AM #17
Minuteman's Avatar
Minuteman Minuteman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Maryland, let's make it a better place.
Posts: 19,723
Minuteman Minuteman is offline
Minuteman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Maryland, let's make it a better place.
Posts: 19,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherPunk View Post
Handgun permit holders commit less crime than police officers.
Permit holders are just looking for a fair, objective permit approval process and a clear understanding of what the laws are they need to abide by.
Agreed 100%.
__________________

2018
Kuv1Mt6kMOU
Minuteman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 10:44 AM #18
Gambler's Avatar
Gambler Gambler is offline
¿Got Freedom?
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Parkville
Posts: 3,320
Gambler Gambler is offline
¿Got Freedom?
Gambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Parkville
Posts: 3,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schipperke View Post
Show me a decision citing that as basis. If that is anywhere in the record as a determining factor, how could the HPRB not consider this their own case law, applicable to every appellant pointing to a previous overturn on that basis. If you find that basis quoted in a decison, please post it so others can waltz in without spinning the prize wheel by repeating previous testimony and see if it sticks for them. It's a kangaroo court that is still with us due to the late entrance of a Bill last session to kill it. The board has the power to overturn MSP w/o people making the trek to Crownsville. Why have they surrendered that?
The board doesn't use past decisions like "case law". I don't know enough about the intricacies of the law to know if that is legitimate or not. Currently, each applicant has to make their own argument. Lately, if they do it correctly, the board has been favorable in removing needless restrictions. If I ever get my letter back from the AG who's sitting on it, then I'll share it with you.
__________________
MSI Secretary - Join Us, and stand up for your rights!
SAF Life Member
NRA Member
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
MD Qualified Handgun Instructor - PM me to inquire about free HQL training!
Gambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 11:07 AM #19
CypherPunk's Avatar
CypherPunk CypherPunk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,217
Images: 8
CypherPunk CypherPunk is offline
Senior Member
CypherPunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,217
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
The board doesn't use past decisions like "case law". I don't know enough about the intricacies of the law to know if that is legitimate or not. Currently, each applicant has to make their own argument. Lately, if they do it correctly, the board has been favorable in removing needless restrictions. If I ever get my letter back from the AG who's sitting on it, then I'll share it with you.

Neither are the Maryland State Police influenced by past decisions of the Board in deciding if applications meet their G&S scheme.

It's like the movie Groundhog Day with MSP pointlessly denying or restricting handgun permits... and applicants making the same successful arguments over and over again - each time, as if it were a new argument.

A terrible waste of limited Police and government resources, solely for political purposes, against a group who statistically commits fewer crimes than police officers.

Gov. Hogan promised to put the state on a new path and change Maryland for the better.

I look forward to the Gov. and Col. Pallozzi fixing this circus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________

NEW 2017 TRAINING SCHEDULE CLICK HERE!
MD FIREARMS Wiki & FAQ CLICK HERE!
CypherPunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2017, 12:04 PM #20
44man's Avatar
44man 44man is offline
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
44man 44man is offline
member
44man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: southern md
Posts: 4,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by CypherPunk View Post
Neither are the Maryland State Police influenced by past decisions of the Board in deciding if applications meet their G&S scheme.

It's like the movie Groundhog Day with MSP pointlessly denying or restricting handgun permits... and applicants making the same successful arguments over and over again - each time, as if it were a new argument.

A terrible waste of limited Police and government resources, solely for political purposes, against a group who statistically commits fewer crimes than police officers.

Gov. Hogan promised to put the state on a new path and change Maryland for the better.

I look forward to the Gov. and Col. Pallozzi fixing this circus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
do you truly have faith that his will happen before Hogan looses re election?

__________________
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

NRA life member
Va ccw
Fla ccw
MSI
44man is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > Gun Rights and Legislation > Maryland 2A Issues


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2017, Congregate Media, LP Privacy Policy Terms of Service