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Old August 11th, 2017, 12:56 PM #21
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Originally Posted by CypherPunk View Post
Neither are the Maryland State Police influenced by past decisions of the Board in deciding if applications meet their G&S scheme.

It's like the movie Groundhog Day with MSP pointlessly denying or restricting handgun permits... and applicants making the same successful arguments over and over again - each time, as if it were a new argument.

A terrible waste of limited Police and government resources, solely for political purposes, against a group who statistically commits fewer crimes than police officers.

Gov. Hogan promised to put the state on a new path and change Maryland for the better.

I look forward to the Gov. and Col. Pallozzi fixing this circus.


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Old August 11th, 2017, 01:28 PM #22
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Old August 12th, 2017, 08:50 AM #23
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Originally Posted by boundlessdyad View Post
Before this board, yes. At a different time in the future with a different governor I can see many unrestricted renewals either failing or having restrictions applied. I doubt a dem governor would try to stop issuance of all handgun permits but I can totally see the restrictions coming back with full force and the existence of a HPRB board made up of folks like we had under O' Malley.
Oh, I hope they do take an appeal from the existing Board decisions. I have expressly dared the MSP to take an appeal from an adverse Board decision. Time to start fixing MD case law (Snowden, Scherr). So far, the AG's office has not taken a single appeal. That's not an accident. I want the "Pennak letter" in the administrative record. The principles reflected in that letter have been reflected in recent Board decisions. Makes it easier to defend in court, where review is on the basis of the administrative record. Everyone who appeals a restriction should have the "Pennak letter" in the record. I want a test case. Folks will forgive me if I am very selective on which case. The "Pennak letter" is attached.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:27 AM #24
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Originally Posted by esqappellate View Post
Oh, I hope they do take an appeal from the existing Board decisions. I have expressly dared the MSP to take an appeal from an adverse Board decision. Time to start fixing MD case law (Snowden, Scherr). So far, the AG's office has not taken a single appeal. That's not an accident. I want the "Pennak letter" in the administrative record. The principles reflected in that letter have been reflected in recent Board decisions. Makes it easier to defend in court, where review is on the basis of the administrative record. Everyone who appeals a restriction should have the "Pennak letter" in the record. I want a test case. Folks will forgive me if I am very selective on which case. The "Pennak letter" is attached.
~100 over turns a year vs just wait for the next Democrat Governor. I think they are playing it just right. Patience is a virtue, and in Maryland on the Dems & MSP side.

If one goes in front of the HPRB with that letter for consideration, and they sustain MSP restrictions, what needs to be selective for an appeal? Race or gender? Would MSI finally put up some money on a case that involves a Wear & Carry permit?
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:46 AM #25
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~100 over turns a year vs just wait for the next Democrat Governor. I think they are playing it just right. Patience is a virtue, and in Maryland on the Dems & MSP side.

If one goes in front of the HPRB with that letter for consideration, and they sustain MSP restrictions, what needs to be selective for an appeal? Race or gender? Would MSI finally put up some money on a case that involves a Wear & Carry permit?
So far, every appeal from a vague restriction (they all are vague) with that letter in the record has been sustained by the Board. When, and if, a restriction is sustained, we can make a call on the basis of that administrative record. Again, I can't stress this enough: If it is not in the record, it doesn't exist for purposes of judicial review. Again, a test case means we have to be highly selective. We are not lawyers, but whether to involve ourselves will be a Board decision (not mine), since it would involve a fair chunk of change. (Please donate at www.marylandshallissue.org) That said, I'm looking for the right case.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:47 AM #26
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Old August 12th, 2017, 10:16 AM #27
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Thank You for sharing this
Was very generous indeed.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 11:25 AM #28
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Originally Posted by esqappellate View Post
Oh, I hope they do take an appeal from the existing Board decisions. I have expressly dared the MSP to take an appeal from an adverse Board decision. Time to start fixing MD case law (Snowden, Scherr). So far, the AG's office has not taken a single appeal. That's not an accident. I want the "Pennak letter" in the administrative record. The principles reflected in that letter have been reflected in recent Board decisions. Makes it easier to defend in court, where review is on the basis of the administrative record. Everyone who appeals a restriction should have the "Pennak letter" in the record. I want a test case. Folks will forgive me if I am very selective on which case. The "Pennak letter" is attached.
So, I have a question.

Let's say that MSP doesn't take any of the overturns to court while a Republican is Governor. But once a Democrat is Governor, those permits that were overturned, apply for renewal and get denied. In the ensuing appeal tot HPRB, the Pennak letter is used, and the denial is upheld. Would that also be a fine time to start to overturn past court rulings?
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Old August 12th, 2017, 12:11 PM #29
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Originally Posted by dblas View Post
So, I have a question.

Let's say that MSP doesn't take any of the overturns to court while a Republican is Governor. But once a Democrat is Governor, those permits that were overturned, apply for renewal and get denied. In the ensuing appeal tot HPRB, the Pennak letter is used, and the denial is upheld. Would that also be a fine time to start to overturn past court rulings?
Can't MSP revoke the permit for any reason at any time? Potentially as soon as there is a dem gov?
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Old August 12th, 2017, 12:28 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rab1515 View Post
Can't MSP revoke the permit for any reason at any time? Potentially as soon as there is a dem gov?
Certainly ... but I'd bet against them doing so on the 50/50 possibility of them losing in court ... possibly losing the G&S standard altogether. Would not be worth the risk to the antis.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 12:44 PM #31
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Certainly ... but I'd bet against them doing so on the 50/50 possibility of them losing in court ... possibly losing the G&S standard altogether. Would not be worth the risk to the antis.
If MSP hasn't tried taking it to the courts over hprb appeals, your probably right. I truly believe there is no lengths MSP will go to to limit the number of handgun permits. I foresee MSP sueing once under a different administration, and then the floodgates opening of the results are anything but a complete MSP smackdown.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 01:21 PM #32
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My prediction in such a scenario as Rab1515 asks in post #29 is not to revoke outstanding Permits, but at renewal time to either not reissue, or only reissue with restrictions.

Initial Permits are 2 years , simplier for them to let the clock run out .

But looking at the raw numbers , there has been an overall increase of about 6k permits . Only a small percentage of that came directly through the HPRB . Possabilities :

As applied practices by LD coming closer to HPRB practices.

More people applying that would fall under LD unwritten tradition policies.


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Old August 12th, 2017, 02:23 PM #33
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My prediction in such a scenario as Rab1515 asks in post #29 is not to revoke outstanding Permits, but at renewal time to either not reissue, or only reissue with restrictions.

Initial Permits are 2 years , simplier for them to let the clock run out .

But looking at the raw numbers , there has been an overall increase of about 6k permits . Only a small percentage of that came directly through the HPRB . Possabilities :

As applied practices by LD coming closer to HPRB practices.

More people applying that would fall under LD unwritten tradition policies.


More hiring by Armed Security industry.
Agreed. With Jen and Liz on the HPRB (If there still is one) the only action one will have is to dig deep in their pocket to appeal, after they rubber stamp MSP denials.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 03:22 PM #34
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So, I have a question.

Let's say that MSP doesn't take any of the overturns to court while a Republican is Governor. But once a Democrat is Governor, those permits that were overturned, apply for renewal and get denied. In the ensuing appeal tot HPRB, the Pennak letter is used, and the denial is upheld. Would that also be a fine time to start to overturn past court rulings?
I would prefer to defend a favorable Board decision. But, yes, as an unexplained or arbitrary departure from prior treatment on the same facts has to be explained and justified by the Board under administrative law. The Pennak letter is focused on the MSP's restrictions policy. That's the ideal factual situation for judical review.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 04:01 PM #35
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According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
That's how they explained their decision for the out of state appellant. The complete institutional amnesia for each case justified their arbitrary and capricious rulings, since there can be no case precedent to follow. And by extension (in their minds, anyway) that also pertains to case law. They just revert to their 1930s mindset, and SHUT UP, CITIZEN.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 05:35 AM #36
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WOW that was painful. I am amazed any permits get through. Can they obfuscate any more than this? I have never seen someone work so hard to not answer a question.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 12:22 PM #37
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I think its very telling the AG has not appealed anything. I think they are just biding their time until a change in administration. However don't get complacent. As ESQ said above its vital that you build a record just in case. I always file a 10 page memo in support of cases I do. I'm happy for my clients but I'd really like to have the AG appeal one and have an opportunity to make some (good) law.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 02:49 PM #38
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Seems like the MSP always are in the right according to their law that makes a permitted carry person breaking the laws no matter what he does!
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Old August 16th, 2017, 06:14 AM #39
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Woodstock did a nice job last night during his appeal. His only question to the MSP represented by Sgt. Bonnell was "am I working right now," to which the Sgt. replied "I have no way of knowing that sir!" Later Woodstock went on to explain that MSP had told him as long as he was carrying his business cell phone he could credibly assert that he was "working." No one would want to look or sound this ridiculous unless they were left floundering to continue an unnecessary tradition.

That leaves two possibilities. Superintendent Pollazzi believes in unnecessary infringements on the right of vetted and law abiding citizens, that thanks to the MGA put those same citizens at risk of criminal penalties. Or Pollazzi is afraid to exercise his authority (not to issue restrictions) for fear of the anti back lash, and prefers to let the "citizen" Board rectify the individual risk on a case by case basis for anyone with the fortitude to navigate the appeal process. One thing is clear. Despite all statements to the contrary the MSP continues to pump out restricted permits clogging the Board's docket, and yet MSP has yet to petition a single Board modification (to unrestricted) for judicial review. It's tough to reconcile those facts without looking to pure politics as the answer.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 06:36 AM #40
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Woodstock did a nice job last night during his appeal. His only question to the MSP represented by Sgt. Bonnell was "am I working right now," to which the Sgt. replied "I have no way of knowing that sir!" Later Woodstock went on to explain that MSP had told him as long as he was carrying his business cell phone he could credibly assert that he was "working." No one would want to look or sound this ridiculous unless they were left floundering to continue an unnecessary tradition.

That leaves two possibilities. Superintendent Pollazzi believes in unnecessary infringements on the right of vetted and law abiding citizens, that thanks to the MGA put those same citizens at risk of criminal penalties. Or Pollazzi is afraid to exercise his authority (not to issue restrictions) for fear of the anti back lash, and prefers to let the "citizen" Board rectify the individual risk on a case by case basis for anyone with the fortitude to navigate the appeal process. One thing is clear. Despite all statements to the contrary the MSP continues to pump out restricted permits clogging the Board's docket, and yet MSP has yet to petition a single Board modification (to unrestricted) for judicial review. It's tough to reconcile those facts without looking to pure politics as the answer.


Bonnell is such a tool. All the time that Woodstock was articulating the reasons why he believed he was working RIGHT NOW Bonnell was shaking his head up and down like he was in a church service with Billy Graham and then when Woodstock asked him AGAIN if he was working RIGHT NOW, Bonnell gave him the same rote response.

As if he woke up and realized that those who write his performance reviews were standing in back of the room.


   
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