Question Re: L1A1 (Non Metric Pattern) builds

Spetsnazdan · Oct 25, 2017

Based on the MDSP Firearms Search;

The 2013 Ban banned:
The Argentine L.S.R.
FN LAR and FN FAL assault rifle
SAR-48

The Century Arms L1A1 was identified in April 2017 as a copy of an enumerated banned assault weapon.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first 3 models listed (L.S.R., FAL, and SAR-48) are all based on or are the Metric Pattern FAL, while the Century L1A1 is a mix of Inch and Metric parts built on a metric receiver.

"a firearm is considered a copy if it is both cosmetically similar to and has completely interchangeable internal components necessary for the full operation and function of one of the enumerated banned weapons"

(metric)

(inch)

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240806
(FAL files on parts interchangeability between Inch and Metric)

Would it be safe to say that building a "L1A1" off of a L1A1 parts kit and Inch pattern receiver (assuming one can be found) would not be constructing a copy of a banned weapon, as the banned weapons are all metric pattern, as opposed to inch pattern, and thus have parts incompatibilities?

Thanks for your patience,
Dan

Not_an_outlaw · Oct 25, 2017

I'd like the answer too. I'd like to get another L1A1. Mine is awesome, and ugly too!

-Z/28- · Oct 25, 2017

Given that Metric M1As were determined to be legal by the same scrutiny, you could make a case to MSP over it.

Spetsnazdan · Oct 25, 2017

-Z/28- said:
Given that Metric M1As were determined to be legal by the same scrutiny, you could make a case to MSP over it.

-Z/28-,

I think that's probably the best thing to do (and something I would be happy to do)

I believe I'd need to file the Firearm Review Form found at the bottom of the Firearm Search page?

That being said, given that I'd be considering building from a parts kit:

The text by Firearm Review Form under the banned firearms list says "By submitting this form, you are acknowledging that you have contacted a firearms dealer and/or the firearm's manufacturer and/or your attorney and have not obtained the guidance necessary to make an informed decision."

Who would / should I contact in order to follow proper procedure here? I don't think there are any new Inch pattern L1A1s being made beyond parts kits. I guess someone who makes inch pattern lowers?

tallen702 · Oct 25, 2017

We've gone over this several times before.

:deadhorse:

All FAL based rifles (with the possible exception of DSA) are licensed patterns of the FN-FAL, that includes REAL L1A1s, R1A1s, FALOs, etc. As such, they are, despite local nomenclature, FALs. As for the century argument, it's pretty invalid as they aren't mixed parts (inch and metric in the same gun) but are in fact built on receivers that will take either inch or metric parts. That means a Century L1A1 could actually be metric as it was a name thrown out by them to attract buyers rather than any indication of what parts were used. Down the road when S. African and Rhodesian parts became big sellers, they changed the name to R1A1 for the same reason.

P.S. your "metric" picture is wrong. That's an Izzy FALO, a licensed copy of the LAR. A true metric FAL would be almost exactly the same as the lower picture with the exception of the cocking handle and dust cover. The only other difference is the cut for the magazine stud and the thread pitch.

That's not to say you can't try, but I'd be extremely surprised if you could get that one past them.

Edit: It should be noted that there are examples of FAL clones out there that DO have mixed parts in them, but that's because with the exception of threaded parts, they are completely interchangeable, which is one of the things that they're looking for in banning particular weapons or categories of them. There are exactly 3 parts that won't readily swap without a quick chase to the receiver's threads.

Spetsnazdan · Oct 25, 2017

Sorry about beating a dead horse; I searched this subforum and found ~3 posts in the past 3 years or so, and then the majority of results were from 2013 and before. In hindsight probably should have searched the whole forum.

You're right, that is a FAL-O, Numrich had that diagram for the FAL instead of the regular FAL for whatever reason.

The results I got when I looked up the Century "L1A1" and whether or not it was metric or inch basically said its a Metric gun with some hand fitting done with some parts (e.g. threaded parts as you said in your edit) and this it's a "L1A1" in name only.

The FAL files post I linked on which parts on the L1A1/FAL are interchangeable seems to disagree with your count of exactly 3 parts the won't readily swap without a quick chase to threads; but even then, I would think the Barrel (amongst other parts) not being immediately interchangeable would fall outside of "completely interchangeable internal components necessary for the full operation and function of one of the enumerated banned weapons".

The note on the Barrel from the aforementioned post:
"barrel & gas block no
FAL = 90 degree gas port
L1A1 = 45 degree gas port"

Thanks, Dan

Not_an_outlaw · Oct 25, 2017

Spetsnazdan said:
-Z/28-,

I think that's probably the best thing to do (and something I would be happy to do)

I believe I'd need to file the Firearm Review Form found at the bottom of the Firearm Search page?

That being said, given that I'd be considering building from a parts kit:

The text by Firearm Review Form under the banned firearms list says "By submitting this form, you are acknowledging that you have contacted a firearms dealer and/or the firearm's manufacturer and/or your attorney and have not obtained the guidance necessary to make an informed decision."

Who would / should I contact in order to follow proper procedure here? I don't think there are any new Inch pattern L1A1s being made beyond parts kits. I guess someone who makes inch pattern lowers?

Please do. I also searched this site too and was unable to find a definitive answer. Seems to me that they are still different, regardless if the receiver is the same. But, I am no firearms expert.

Jimbob2.0 · Oct 26, 2017

Clarity would help even though its MSP and its "advisory"

tallen702 · Oct 26, 2017

Spetsnazdan said:
The note on the Barrel from the aforementioned post:
"barrel & gas block no
FAL = 90 degree gas port
L1A1 = 45 degree gas port"

I think you're missing the point.

The point is that the vast majority of parts are interchangeable which is likely going to get you shot down even if you try an end-run. It should also be noted that the Century Arms L1A1s were made in BOTH Metric and Inch pattern depending on which parts kits were used. As such, it kind of covers all the bases that way. Is it a metric FAL? Yes? Then it's covered under the FAL, LSR, LAR, and Century L1A1 ban. Is it an Inch FAL? Yes? Then it's covered under the Century L1A1 ban as they sold both metric and inch pattern under that name.

Again, by all means, go for it. I'd love the ability to build another FAL, but don't be surprised when you get shot down.

Pinecone · Oct 26, 2017

MAJORITY does not have any meaning.

AG opinion says that any single part from one can be swapped to the and vice versa and both fully function.

ONE part not interchanging makes it not a copy.

And a quick chase of the threads is not a direct interchange of parts.

And finally, it is not up to MSP to make the determination, their list, but their own admission is not legally binding.

The trick is, can you find a dealer who will sell you one.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Oct 26, 2017

You cannot count on the State of Maryland to give you an answer you'll like. They will, in all probability, decide in favor of their power to expand their authority...unless forced to do otherwise by a court.

I have a SAR-48 I purchased back in the '80s...it's an exceptional rifle.

Question Re: L1A1 (Non Metric Pattern) builds

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