No more SBRs

teratos said:

I'll bring everything in the safe.

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You need backup?

A few more of us can empty our safes also. Browning_guy can sit next to chad.

erwos said:

What Chad said is perfectly correct and sensible, and something I warned about in my FAQ for a long time. A form 1 is an application to make/manufacture, not an application to transfer like a form 4. A form 1 is NOT a purchase order, it's at best "intent to manufacture". A form 4 could be reasonably construed as a purchase order.

Further, we're all in general agreement that a rifle can't be an ALG and a copycat weapon at the same time, but the MSP has not yet clarified whether SBRs can ever be ALGs.

If they can be ALGs, Chad can either chop it to any length he wants.

If they can't be ALGs, Chad has to keep it at 29" or above, because it could be a copycat weapon.

The plus side to the logic of the second case is that SBR and handgun versions of all the banned rifles should be back on the table. But the roster board seems to be under the impression you can be a copy of a banned rifle while being a handgun. *mind blown* Might take a lawsuit to resolve that, too.

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Let me propose a 3rd scenario for Chad. From your comments I’m assuming Chad desires to create a sub 29 inch SBR from a pre 10/01/13 ALG.

The ban on “assault weapons” is contained in Subtitle 3 of the Criminal Law Article.

Under CR § 4-303(a) a person may not “(1) transport an assault weapon into the State; or (2) possess, sell, offer to sell, transfer, purchase, or receive an assault weapon”.

Under CR § 4-301, two subspecies of “assault weapon” are “assault long gun” and “copycat weapon”.

The grandfathering provision of CR § 4-303(b) will allow you to hang on to that “assault long gun” and “copy cat weapon” so long as it lawfully possessed prior to 10/01/13: “A person who lawfully possessed, has a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase an assault long gun or a copycat weapon before October 1, 2013, may: (i) possess and transport the assault long gun or copycat weapon; . . .”

So now the MSP issues an opinion stating that SBRs can fall within the definition of “copy cat weapon”. What if I want to SBR my pre 10/01/13 AR15 (an “assault long gun”) to something that ends up having an OAL of less than 29? Am I screwed? If, in the process of shortening that barrel, that AR15 ceases to be an “assault long gun” then it will subject to the copycat test and its 29 inch length restriction.

In a post 10/01/13 world, in order to lawfully posses a “copy cat weapon” I must have lawfully possessed a “copycat weapon” prior to 10/01/13. As Erwos points out a firearm cannot be an “assault long gun” and “copycat weapon” at the same time: ““Copycat weapon” does not include an assault long gun . . .” CR § 4-103 (e). So is Chad forever prohibited from going any shorter that 29”?

What if on 09/28/13 Chad takes lawful possession of and AR15 “assault long gun” from his FLL. On 09/29/13 Chad comes to the conclusion that a skinny-barreled AR won’t hold up to bubba mag-dump firing schedule – he then slaps on h-bar upper. On 09/30/13, never being one to leave good enough alone, Chad mounts the best dam flash hider on the end of his h-bar and for shits and giggles also installs a Law Tac folding stock adapter.

In answering the question of how short can Chad go with his future SBR, the question then becomes: What did Chad possess and when did he possess it? On 09/28/13 he was in lawfully possession of an “assault long gun”. On 09/29/13 he was in lawful possession of neither “assault long” or “copycat weapon”. On 09/30/13 he was in lawful possession of a “copycat weapon”.

Recall that the grandfathering provision of CR § 4-303(b) provides that a “person who lawfully possessed, . . .an assault long gun or a copycat weapon before October 1, 2013, may: (i) possess and transport the assault long gun or copycat weapon; . . .”

In my Chad hypothetical, did Chad not possess and “assault long gun prior to October 1, 2013? Did he not also lawfully possess a “copycat weapon” prior October 1, 2013? So why can’t he continued to posses the pre 10/01/13 assault long gun as well as a pre 10/01/13 copycat weapon – albeit not at the same time?

This is the government that taxes the rain. They also define a SBR as a rifle and a pistol. They wanted to ban pistol grips because they allow you to "spray bullets accurately from the hip".

They will do what they want. They have endless resources to prosecute you. Even if you win.....you lose.

anderson76 said:

In my Chad hypothetical, did Chad not possess and “assault long gun prior to October 1, 2013? Did he not also lawfully possess a “copycat weapon” prior October 1, 2013? So why can’t he continued to posses the pre 10/01/13 assault long gun as well as a pre 10/01/13 copycat weapon – albeit not at the same time?

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But what about this from CR § 4-301(E)(2): “COPYCAT WEAPON” DOES NOT INCLUDE AN ASSAULT LONG GUN OR AN ASSAULT PISTOL ? Does it really help Chad to claim he had a copycat weapon when he could claim he has an assault long gun? If he has an assault long gun, the copycat tests no longer apply, whereas the reverse is not necessarily the case - you could conceivably turn your HBAR copycat into an assault long gun.

erwos said:

But what about this from CR § 4-301(E)(2): “COPYCAT WEAPON” DOES NOT INCLUDE AN ASSAULT LONG GUN OR AN ASSAULT PISTOL ? Does it really help Chad to claim he had a copycat weapon when he could claim he has an assault long gun? If he has an assault long gun, the copycat tests no longer apply, whereas the reverse is not necessarily the case - you could conceivably turn your HBAR copycat into an assault long gun.

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As you have pointed out, the big unanswered question in the MSP opinion letter is whether an SBR can be an ALG. If the answer is yes, then that would be great for those of us that have pre 10/01 ALG and want to SBR to an OAL of less than 29 inches.

However, if taking a few inches of the barrel of a pre 10/01 ALG cause it to no longer be an ALG – then it could potentially be a copycat weapon (since it is not longer and ALG – its no longer excluded from the definition of copycat weapon by 4-301(E)(2)). If so, then you cannot lawfully possess it, at a OAL of less than 29in, unless you lawfully possessed it prior to 10/01.

Agreed.

My head hurts.

Dogabutila said:

My head hurts.

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Me too... Feels like I got kicked right in the...

Constitution.

So it is still not clear on SBRing a pre 10/1/13 HBAR copycat?

TyFromMD said:

So if I'm making a Form 1 SBR it either needs to be over >29" and not meet the definition of a copycat firearm OR be less than 26" to meet the definition of a handgun, or move to another state and not worry about it?

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That would be my interpretation of the statutes.

BUT, I don't think the Advisory is looking at it that way.
It seems as though they are interpreting some SBRs as both a pistol (if it has bbl less than 16") AND a Copycat (if its OAL is less than 29").

Now, an appeallate court might rule that it can't be both, it has to be one or another, and making an SBR a pistol by making it less than 26" is the way to go.

But I sure wouldn't want to be the test case on that one!

Can I ask someone questions in PM or other method of communication. My head hurts from reading 90 pages and I still have questions about a future 300 BLK SBR Build.

fire_medic said:

Can I ask someone questions in PM or other method of communication. My head hurts from reading 90 pages and I still have questions about a future 300 BLK SBR Build.

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You can still pretty easily keep it > 29" I have a 10.5" barrel build that will still meet the length requirement with the stock extended. Ask questions here. I'm sure others have the same questions.

fire_medic said:

Can I ask someone questions in PM or other method of communication. My head hurts from reading 90 pages and I still have questions about a future 300 BLK SBR Build.

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Why not ask in here, and see what you get?

SBR Questions

I have a LaRue rifle that I built long before 10/1. I wanted to
build an SBR 300BLK Upper and Form 1 it. I have a trust and
other NFA items. I wanted to go with an 8.5" barrel but that
would be <29" so a 10.5" Barrel would be the way to go.

I also purchased 2 stripped lowers prior to 10/1 and on the
77r they are listed as Receiver X. I was told I could build
those as Pistols but they weren't O on the 77r. They have
never been built as a rifle. Can they be built as a pistol if
they have never been built as a rifle?

fire_medic said:

I have a LaRue rifle that I built long before 10/1. I wanted to
build an SBR 300BLK Upper and Form 1 it. I have a trust and
other NFA items. I wanted to go with an 8.5" barrel but that
would be <29" so a 10.5" Barrel would be the way to go.

I also purchased 2 stripped lowers prior to 10/1 and on the
77r they are listed as Receiver X. I was told I could build
those as Pistols but they weren't O on the 77r. They have
never been built as a rifle. Can they be built as a pistol if
they have never been built as a rifle?

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I think 10.5" is the way to go to stay safe. I believe you can build a virgin lower as a pistol without a problem.

fire_medic said:

I have a LaRue rifle that I built long before 10/1. I wanted to
build an SBR 300BLK Upper and Form 1 it. I have a trust and
other NFA items. I wanted to go with an 8.5" barrel but that
would be <29" so a 10.5" Barrel would be the way to go.

I also purchased 2 stripped lowers prior to 10/1 and on the
77r they are listed as Receiver X. I was told I could build
those as Pistols but they weren't O on the 77r. They have
never been built as a rifle. Can they be built as a pistol if
they have never been built as a rifle?

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If you owned the Larue prior to 10/1 you can go as short as you want for barrel length & OAL. Same thing goes for the 2 stripped lowers you got pre 10/1.

I just got back a signed Form1 from MSP that I dropped off 3/2014 for a pre 10/1 stripped lower with a listed barrel length of 8.2" and an OAL of 27". I made sure to ask them if it was ok when I dropped it off for them to sign and they had no problem with it. I am also not the only one who has gotten back an MSP signed Form1 with an OAL <29 for a pre 10/1 receiver, pistol, or rifle.

teratos said:

I believe you can build a virgin lower as a pistol without a problem.

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Yep. If it was checked off as an "Other" and notated as a "Receiver" on the 4473 you can build it as a pistol as long as it was never assembled as a rifle first.

fire_medic said:

I have a LaRue rifle that I built long before 10/1. I wanted to
build an SBR 300BLK Upper and Form 1 it. I have a trust and
other NFA items. I wanted to go with an 8.5" barrel but that
would be <29" so a 10.5" Barrel would be the way to go.

I also purchased 2 stripped lowers prior to 10/1 and on the
77r they are listed as Receiver X. I was told I could build
those as Pistols but they weren't O on the 77r. They have
never been built as a rifle. Can they be built as a pistol if
they have never been built as a rifle?

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The LaRue depends on a lot. Was it an ALG before 10/1? Will it be an ALG after you Make it into a title 2 firearm (does an HBAR shorty upper make it a non-ALG? If so, an SBR of even a pre 10/1 ALG wouldn't be an ALG, and could be a copycat weapon subject to the 29" OAL test.) That one is honestly a very specific question that I can't give you answers to with the information provided.

What were they marked? I have no idea why FFLs incorrectly mark firearms still. Lowers and frames are Other. If it can only be built into a rifle, it's STILL an Other. If it is a lower with a stock only, it is an Other. That boggles my mind. Here is an ATF letter that may lead you in the right direction:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0q...zVhLWI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx/edit?pli=1&hl=en#
That provides:

...if individuals utilize a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action, they may lawfully assemble a pistol.

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77r's

The LaRue was transferred to me as a stripped lower. On the 77r it says stripped receiver under type. I have made that a rifle so making a pistol is a no go and with a 10.5 inch barrel I will have 29.5 inches overall. A buddy suggested if I wanted to go shorter to have the 51T brake for my suppressor permanently mounted.

The 2 stripped lowers have an X on the 77r's as type. All of them say N/A on barrel length. Those have never been built so theoretically I could build them as a pistol.

Thanks for the help. I have bookmarked the ATF links that you have sent.

fire_medic said:

The LaRue was transferred to me as a stripped lower. On the 77r it says stripped receiver under type. I have made that a rifle so making a pistol is a no go and with a 10.5 inch barrel I will have 29.5 inches overall. A buddy suggested if I wanted to go shorter to have the 51T brake for my suppressor permanently mounted.



The 2 stripped lowers have an X on the 77r's as type. All of them say N/A on barrel length. Those have never been built so theoretically I could build them as a pistol.



Thanks for the help. I have bookmarked the ATF links that you have sent.

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Stripped lowers should have been "o" (as in "other") on the 77r. X means assault weapon, which were only long guns.

Flipz said:

If you owned the Larue prior to 10/1 you can go as short as you want for barrel length & OAL. Same thing goes for the 2 stripped lowers you got pre 10/1.

I just got back a signed Form1 from MSP that I dropped off 3/2014 for a pre 10/1 stripped lower with a listed barrel length of 8.2" and an OAL of 27". I made sure to ask them if it was ok when I dropped it off for them to sign and they had no problem with it. I am also not the only one who has gotten back an MSP signed Form1 with an OAL <29 for a pre 10/1 receiver, pistol, or rifle.

Yep. If it was checked off as an "Other" and notated as a "Receiver" on the 4473 you can build it as a pistol as long as it was never assembled as a rifle first.

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Hey Flipz. Did the 27" include your muzzle device? If so, which did you use? I'm filling out a form 1 now. Also, which stock did you use?