20190314 - HB786 JUD Amendments

MigraineMan · Mar 19, 2019

PowPow said:
The club amendment only allows the temporary transfer at the club location (or its range). The transferee could not take the rifle or shotgun home with them and bring it back to the club (or its range). This is something that does impact shooting programs.

danb said:
I see. Yes, allowing people to take home rifles or shotguns is a problem.

Consider - we are headed to a club shooting event in my truck We stop for fuel. The credit card reader on the pump is busted, so I have to head inside and interact with the attendant. It could easily be argued that you, still sitting in the truck, are now "in possession" of my trap gun, and we have inadvertently caused a transfer per the proposed law:
HB-786, 5-204.1(A)(9):
(I) we are not at a gun club or range
(II) we are not at a lawfully organized competition
(III) we are not at a performance or practice event
(IV) we are not hunting or trapping
(V) I am no longer present*

* I am using *exactly* the same standard used for transportation of handguns in Maryland, which criminalizes stopping for food or fuel in the process of otherwise legal behavior. If your immediate reaction was "oh, that's absurd!" ... you have your head in the sand.

fidelity · Mar 19, 2019

Looks like the team owner for long guns used in classes better not get sick, have business travel, or be otherwise unexpectedly indisposed for class or competition dates, because the team won't be able to take the long guns. Even if there was sufficient time for a transfer, how does a NICS check transfer work if the recipient is a 16 year old? Probably doesn't, so guessing each might also need a legal guardian traveling with them to a competition site to allow them access to a long gun that has been transferred to the guardian. What if this guardian now wants to keep the long gun? Will the first owner have any recourse?

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danb · Mar 19, 2019

MigraineMan said:
Consider - we are headed to a club shooting event in my truck We stop for fuel. The credit card reader on the pump is busted, so I have to head inside and interact with the attendant. It could easily be argued that you, still sitting in the truck, are now "in possession" of my trap gun, and we have inadvertently caused a transfer per the proposed law:
HB-786, 5-204.1(A)(9):
(I) we are not at a gun club or range
(II) we are not at a lawfully organized competition
(III) we are not at a performance or practice event
(IV) we are not hunting or trapping
(V) I am no longer present*

* I am using *exactly* the same standard used for transportation of handguns in Maryland, which criminalizes stopping for food or fuel in the process of otherwise legal behavior. If your immediate reaction was "oh, that's absurd!" ... you have your head in the sand.

Its always good to see someone with way more BGOS than me, and I have a lot.

swinokur · Mar 19, 2019

There is no criminal penalty in the transport statute 4-203 for stopping for gas or anything else, although it is generally thought to be a bad idea

PowPow · Mar 19, 2019

MigraineMan said:
Consider - we are headed to a club shooting event in my truck We stop for fuel. The credit card reader on the pump is busted, so I have to head inside and interact with the attendant. It could easily be argued that you, still sitting in the truck, are now "in possession" of my trap gun, and we have inadvertently caused a transfer per the proposed law:
HB-786, 5-204.1(A)(9):
(I) we are not at a gun club or range
(II) we are not at a lawfully organized competition
(III) we are not at a performance or practice event
(IV) we are not hunting or trapping
(V) I am no longer present*

* I am using *exactly* the same standard used for transportation of handguns in Maryland, which criminalizes stopping for food or fuel in the process of otherwise legal behavior. If your immediate reaction was "oh, that's absurd!" ... you have your head in the sand.

That would be a problem now, wouldn't it? The transfer needs to be done with intent to keep your scenario from becoming a transfer. I do not read anything in the bill that states it only applies if the transferor has intent to conduct a transfer. Does anyone else? Yet another amendment opportunity if not.

dblas · Mar 19, 2019

Allen65 said:
That raises the question: What happens to a crossfiled bill that passes one house but gets an unfavorable rating from the committee in the other? Is there automatically a floor vote on the crossfile, or, in this case, will it be entirely up to Miller as to whether either bill is voted on?

If there is an unfavorable report out of JPR, it will dies right then and there on the Senate floor after the report. There is no further vote, no matter how bad Miller would want one.

dblas · Mar 19, 2019

danb said:
The Senate versions were not reported unfavorably. Even so, Senate does dot have to send HB786 etc to the judiciary. They can send it to the rules or some other committee to get it to the floor. They will do what it takes to make Bloomberg happy.

They have been able to get bills through the chamber in one day on sine die under the radar. It's not over until over.

Ummm...NO.

Per MGA rules the bill has to go to the committee(s) that authority over that section of state statute. So yes, it would have to go to JPR in the Senate.

dblas · Mar 19, 2019

Jefflac said:
Are there specific senators we should be focusing on? Any first term Dems that would be more prone to doubt, than the other died in the wool long termers?

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My answer would be all of them on JPR to start.

MigraineMan · Mar 19, 2019

swinokur said:
There is no criminal penalty in the transport statute 4-203 for stopping for gas or anything else, although it is generally thought to be a bad idea

They're pretty explicit about the acceptable reasons you may transport your handgun - and transporting to an intermediate destination ain't one of them. There's a half-assed "on the way to, or returning from" hunting activities, but that certainly doesn't apply if you were returning from the initial purchase, or from your bona fide repair shop.

Boondock Saint · Mar 19, 2019

dblas said:
Ummm...NO.

Per MGA rules the bill has to go to the committee(s) that authority over that section of state statute. So yes, it would have to go to JPR in the Senate.

Could you clarify? I know that bills have moved out of Rules in the past very late in the session. It's been a while since I was in this particular loop. Perhaps the bills I referenced came out of a particular house after crossover day?

Malleovic · Mar 19, 2019

Boondock Saint said:
Could you clarify? I know that bills have moved out of Rules in the past very late in the session. It's been a while since I was in this particular loop. Perhaps the bills I referenced came out of a particular house after crossover day?

I think if a bill has not made it over to the other house by the end of crossover,
for it to move through that chamber it will need to go to Rules first (because it is late), then onto whichever committee is responsible. I.E. Rules could kill it before it even got that far. More hurdles.

swinokur · Mar 19, 2019

MigraineMan said:
They're pretty explicit about the acceptable reasons you may transport your handgun - and transporting to an intermediate destination ain't one of them. There's a half-assed "on the way to, or returning from" hunting activities, but that certainly doesn't apply if you were returning from the initial purchase, or from your bona fide repair shop.

If it’s not explicitly prohibited it’s allowed . Not saying I’d do it but many other state statutes have specific language prohibiting it. If you stop for gas on the way to an allowed activity. Are you still on the way to that activity?

IANAL but it’s not prohibited it’s not a violation AFAIK

Not saying I endorse it but it’s not illegal according to the statute

It’s been discussed ad nausem here with no definitive conclusion due to a lack of case law.

danb · Mar 19, 2019

Always good to see people with more BGOS than me.

What are you supposed to do, run out of gas with guns in the car? Let your blood sugar run so low you pass out while driving? Piss yourself in the car? Maybe you should pull over and piss on the shoulder, opening you up to indecent exposure with guns in the car. good plan!

Setting the law aside, there are a billion common sense reasons you might want to be cautious about stopping with guns in your car. People have been know to be followed to/from ranges, cars have been known to be broken into. Your NRA or MDS sticker makes you a target. Just saying.

swinokur · Mar 19, 2019

Lol if you run out of gas, then wherever that is becomes your destination!

MigraineMan · Mar 19, 2019

swinokur said:
If it’s not explicitly prohibited it’s allowed .

I know. But the opening section of 4-203 expressly prohibits ALL transport of handguns, except for "the following circumstances." That's where the problem lies. They don't provide a list of prohibitions, they prohibit everything and provide a list of exceptions. That shouldn't meet the "narrowness" requirement that SCOTUS dictates for restrictions on Constitutionally protected rights ... but that's what we've got until someone is unfortunate enough to become the test case.

I'm pretty sure Baron von Frosh would take that case himself, given the opportunity.

swinokur · Mar 19, 2019

Many statutes are written this way. Prohibit everything and then list the allowed exceptions. But the argument will be over the meaning of “on the way to or returningg from”.

I agree with not wanting to be the test case but I also agree with Dan that circumstances like needing gas don’t necessarily make you in violation either

rbird7282 · Mar 19, 2019

MigraineMan said:
Consider - we are headed to a club shooting event in my truck We stop for fuel. The credit card reader on the pump is busted, so I have to head inside and interact with the attendant. It could easily be argued that you, still sitting in the truck, are now "in possession" of my trap gun, and we have inadvertently caused a transfer per the proposed law:

HB-786, 5-204.1(A)(9):

(I) we are not at a gun club or range

(II) we are not at a lawfully organized competition

(III) we are not at a performance or practice event

(IV) we are not hunting or trapping

(V) I am no longer present*

* I am using *exactly* the same standard used for transportation of handguns in Maryland, which criminalizes stopping for food or fuel in the process of otherwise legal behavior. If your immediate reaction was "oh, that's absurd!" ... you have your head in the sand.

Nowhere in the law does it say stopping for food or fuel is illegal with regard to transporting a handgun to/from a range or gun shop.

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swinokur · Mar 19, 2019

And no one knows how aggressive MD might be in a prosecution for a stop on the way or returning from.

I tend to think a stop for gas or food would be looked at differently than going to the mall on the
way to or returning from from

But IANAL and this is MD

Lloyd · Mar 19, 2019

"I'm not free to discuss my day" ...it's that simple.

.

chilipeppermaniac · Mar 19, 2019

Good one, Lloyd. This is the free state, don'tcha know?

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