Walther PPQ Match 5 SF Pro

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

Hi folks:

I am thinking about a high end gun when I’ve put the money together for it. Right now, I’m thinking about the Walther PPQ Match 5 SF Pro. Tell me why you think this is a good or bad idea, why you think so, and if you don’t think it is a great choice, make a recommendation. The only thing off the tables are crazy expensive guns like those from Korth, and guns above 9mm.

Let me help by giving more particulars:
1) I am not looking for a custom tricked out Gucci-Glock or similar gun. I want it to be great as a stock gun that can be fixed with stock parts. Apart from some possible trigger work, I don’t want to mess with it.
2) I am not a sport shooter. I want this type of gun because I have osteoarthritis and Fibromyalgia and the recoil mitigation of a heavier competition grade gun should help to reduce the discomfort I feel from shooting (I usually shoot twice a month, 200 to 300 rounds per session). I have nice 22s, but I enjoy shooting a substantial gun.
2a) I want something in the 40+ ounce range. I’d prefer it to be steel.
3) Although I like 380, apart from some higher end 1911 platforms in 380, I’ve not seen a full sized 380 that will meet my needs/wants.
4) I’m not planning on carrying, suppressing, or putting an RMR on it, so these features don’t mean anything to me.
5) No hand cannons, so Deagles and such are not up for consideration.

erwos · Feb 4, 2020

OK, so in terms of "higher end pistols", you've got:
1. Walther PPQ Q5 SF
2. Sig P320 X5 Legion
3. Beretta 92X Performance (not on the roster yet)
4. Various semi-gucci Glocks - Shadow Systems MR920 is my current favorite.
5. CZ Shadow 2

Without knowing how you're going to shoot it, though, it's hard to make a recommendation. The only beef some people have with the Q5 SF is that the trigger isn't quite as tuned out of the box as it could be, and there's no Apex or Walther Expert release quite yet.

Occam · Feb 4, 2020

I was standing in my LGS with $1600 in my pocket, planning on picking up that very Walther. In a fit of due diligence, I decided to handle other full-size 9mm match pistols more or less in that price range, to see if anything else talked to me. Poof! My Walther lust evaporated, and I ended up with a CZ Shadow II. This is such a very subjective thing, one hates to provide any advice beyond the usual: you've gotta lay hands on guns like this, because minor ergonomic and trigger issues are going to really jump out at you. Whether the striker-vs-hammer thing matters to you, or it's just about the grip or the balance - you never know. In a perfect world, you'd get some trigger time on a few flavors at a match (most folks are very willing to let you put a few through their match pistols). For me, the Walther's grip didn't feel natural, and the balance was such that it just didn't point (for me, with my hands and my habits and my eyes) like the the CZ. That was obvious within literally seconds of handling each side by side. Other folks are going to feel exactly the opposite.

I haven't regretted the Shadow II for a moment, other than owning it has caused me to buy another expensive CZ (for the wife! no, really!) ... and then another CZ, too, dammit. I like that we can shoot the CZs in "production" classes (depending on the sport), and that mags seem easy enough to come by.

At that price point, every pistol you'll look at will be a lovely piece of work - functional, fast, accurate, a pleasure to own and use. But at those prices, I'm willing to split hairs over specific little things, and the CZ was where I landed.

erwos · Feb 4, 2020

All of those pistols can be shot in Production, except for some of the gucci Glocks (the MR918 is on "the list", though!).

Personally, if the only thing I cared about was Production, I would absolutely pick the 92X Performance. The trigger in DA is unbelievably light at 6-6.5lbs, and the whole gun feels amazing in the hand. Unfortunately, much like the Shadow 2, it's not optics ready out of the box.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

Let me help by giving more particulars:
1) I am not looking for a custom tricked out Gucci-Glock or similar gun. I want it to be great as a stock gun that can be fixed with stock parts. Apart from some possible trigger work, I don’t want to mess with it.
2) I am not a sport shooter. I want this type of gun because I have osteoarthritis and Fibromyalgia and the recoil mitigation of a heavier competition grade gun should help to mitigate the discomfort I feel. I have nice 22s, but I enjoy shooting a substantial gun.
2a) I want something in the 40+ ounce range. I’d prefer it to be steel.
3) Although I like 380, apart from some higher end 1911 platforms in 380, I’ve not seen a full sized 380 that will meet my needs/wants.
4) I’m not planning on carrying, suppressing, or putting an RMR on it, so these features don’t mean anything to me.
5) No hand cannons, so Deagles and such are not up for consideration.

I hope that helps.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

erwos said:
All of those pistols can be shot in Production, except for some of the gucci Glocks (the MR918 is on "the list", though!).

Personally, if the only thing I cared about was Production, I would absolutely pick the 92X Performance. The trigger in DA is unbelievably light at 6-6.5lbs, and the whole gun feels amazing in the hand. Unfortunately, much like the Shadow 2, it's not optics ready out of the box.

Thanks for the input. I just added particulars in my decision matrix. One of those is that optics are not a requirement. I like shooting with irons. If I did an optic, I’d have to be able to co-witness it. I do like the function, feel, and weight of the 92 series. I have a Taurus PT-92 and I enjoy shooting it a lot.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

Occam said:
I was standing in my LGS with $1600 in my pocket, planning on picking up that very Walther. In a fit of due diligence, I decided to handle other full-size 9mm match pistols more or less in that price range, to see if anything else talked to me. Poof! My Walther lust evaporated, and I ended up with a CZ Shadow II. This is such a very subjective thing, one hates to provide any advice beyond the usual: you've gotta lay hands on guns like this, because minor ergonomic and trigger issues are going to really jump out at you. Whether the striker-vs-hammer thing matters to you, or it's just about the grip or the balance - you never know. In a perfect world, you'd get some trigger time on a few flavors at a match (most folks are very willing to let you put a few through their match pistols). For me, the Walther's grip didn't feel natural, and the balance was such that it just didn't point (for me, with my hands and my habits and my eyes) like the the CZ. That was obvious within literally seconds of handling each side by side. Other folks are going to feel exactly the opposite.

I haven't regretted the Shadow II for a moment, other than owning it has caused me to buy another expensive CZ (for the wife! no, really!) ... and then another CZ, too, dammit. I like that we can shoot the CZs in "production" classes (depending on the sport), and that mags seem easy enough to come by.

At that price point, every pistol you'll look at will be a lovely piece of work - functional, fast, accurate, a pleasure to own and use. But at those prices, I'm willing to split hairs over specific little things, and the CZ was where I landed.

Great input. A lot of people compare those two guns. I’m extremely fond of the Walther grip as I have a P99, a PPS, and a P22. From a feel perspective, the grip and trigger are everything. I have no experience with anything from CZ, although its reputation is renowned.

fidelity · Feb 4, 2020

knastera said:
Great input. A lot of people compare those two guns. I’m extremely fond of the Walther grip as I have a P99, a PPS, and a P22. From a feel perspective, the grip and trigger are everything. I have no experience with anything from CZ, although its reputation is renowned.

I'm a Walther guy too - P99 AS, P99C AS, PPQ M1 (4-inch non threaded barrel), PPS M2, and Q5 Match - all in 9mm. I have a PPK (Manurhin) and PPQ-22 5-inch in 22LR as well.

I got the Q5 match for the optic capability - but have had a tough time adjusting to shooting with a pistol mounted red dot. I also shoot my PPQ 4-inch better (comparing without optics mounted on the Q5) and will probably eventually sell the Q5.

Preamble out of the way, for a gun with slightly more substance/weight, I like both the Sig P226 SAO Legion and CZ Shadow Orange and Shadow 2 (the CZs were Zzzzz_man's, so I hope that I am remembering his models correctly). The CZs were both intuitive, smooth, and accurate shooters with minimum felt recoil. I've been reluctant to invest in a yet another 9mm pistol line (in part with all the headaches of sourcing standard sized mags when living in Maryland), but if competitively shooting or seeking for something semi-premium, I would look at CZ instead of Walther.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

fidelity said:
I'm a Walther guy too - P99 AS, P99C AS, PPQ M1 (4-inch non threaded barrel), PPS M2, and Q5 Match - all in 9mm. I have a PPK (Manurhin) and PPQ-22 5-inch in 22LR as well.

I got the Q5 match for the optic capability - but have had a tough time adjusting to shooting with a pistol mounted red dot. I also shoot my PPQ 4-inch better (comparing without optics mounted on the Q5) and will probably eventually sell the Q5.

Preamble out of the way, for a gun with slightly more substance/weight, I like both the Sig P226 SAO Legion and CZ Shadow Orange and Shadow 2 (the CZs were Zzzzz_man's, so I hope that I am remembering his models correctly). The CZs were both intuitive, smooth, and accurate shooters with minimum felt recoil. I've been reluctant to invest in a yet another 9mm pistol line (in part with all the headaches of sourcing standard sized mags when living in Maryland), but if competitively shooting or seeking for something semi-premium, I would look at CZ instead of Walther.

Thank you for the well thought out input. The Sig Legion is intriguing. I have a P320 full size in 40 S&W and a P320C in 9mm. Is your Q5 Match steel or polymer? What I need to do is get my hands on some of these.

fidelity · Feb 4, 2020

knastera said:
Thank you for the well thought out input. The Sig Legion is intriguing. I have a P320 full size in 40 S&W and a P320C in 9mm. Is your Q5 Match steel or polymer? What I need to do is get my hands on some of these.

I got the first generation Q5 Match, so it is polymer. But in comparisons to my also polymer PPQ M1, I shoot the older pistol better. Maybe the trigger is broken in a bit better. Maybe the sight picture/sight radius works better for me. Not sure. But the result is reproducible.

Czechnologist · Feb 4, 2020

fidelity said:
I'm a Walther guy too - P99 AS, P99C AS, PPQ M1 (4-inch non threaded barrel), PPS M2, and Q5 Match - all in 9mm. I have a PPK (Manurhin) and PPQ-22 5-inch in 22LR as well.

I got the Q5 match for the optic capability - but have had a tough time adjusting to shooting with a pistol mounted red dot. I also shoot my PPQ 4-inch better (comparing without optics mounted on the Q5) and will probably eventually sell the Q5.

Preamble out of the way, for a gun with slightly more substance/weight, I like both the Sig P226 SAO Legion and CZ Shadow Orange and Shadow 2 (the CZs were Zzzzz_man's, so I hope that I am remembering his models correctly). The CZs were both intuitive, smooth, and accurate shooters with minimum felt recoil. I've been reluctant to invest in a yet another 9mm pistol line (in part with all the headaches of sourcing standard sized mags when living in Maryland), but if competitively shooting or seeking for something semi-premium, I would look at CZ instead of Walther.

I agree with your assessment. I never had a chance to shoot the Q5 SF Match but, I got to handle one at Engage Armament about six months after it was released and wasn't overly impressed by the trigger-pull after dry-firing it a few times. It wasn't terrible but for a (then) $1500 pistol, I expected a lot better. I guess that's just the difference between the striker-fired Walther and the hammer-fired CZ's? CZ triggers are a lot smoother and lighter/crisper.

Yes, you are correct. You shot my Shadow 2 and Shadow Orange Custom and you shot them extremely well as I recall. I think if the OP compares price and performance, he'll find the Shadow 2 to be the far better value.

fidelity · Feb 4, 2020

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

Zzzzz_man said:
I agree with your assessment. I never had a chance to shoot the Q5 SF Match but, I got to handle one at Engage Armament about six months after it was released and wasn't overly impressed by the trigger-pull after dry-firing it a few times. It wasn't terrible but for a (then) $1500 pistol, I expected a lot better. I guess that's just the difference between the striker-fired Walther and the hammer-fired CZ's? CZ triggers are a lot smoother and lighter/crisper.

Yes, you are correct. You shot my Shadow 2 and Shadow Orange Custom and you shot them extremely well as I recall. I think if the OP compares price and performance, he'll find the Shadow 2 to be the far better value.

Thanks Zzzzz. I’ve never shot a CZ and I don’t think local range in PA has any to rent. I need to try one before I make this purchase. I have time.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

I just came across 5 pluses (from my perspective) for the Walther over the Shadow
1) Ambi slide lock (I’m a lefty, so this is almost a game breaker)
2) No safety
3) Longer barrel
4) Ease of disassembly
5) Closer to 40-41 ounces (the Shadow is 47+)

Czechnologist · Feb 4, 2020

Weight was one of the main reasons I switched from the Shadow 2 to a Shadow SP-01 within a few months. The nearly 7oz. weight difference was pretty noticeable when shooting 150-200 rounds during a typical range trip.

Walther definitely wins for ease of take-down but CZ's are remarkably simple to disassemble, too: Line-up the marks on the slide and the frame, push the slide stop thru, bingo.

Seems to me like you've got your mind fairly well made up on the Walther and I won't try to talk ya out of it. It's a damn good pistol. I just happen to consistently shoot hammer-fired guns more accurately than striker-fired and I think that's mainly because of the difference in trigger quality. Well, that and my experience of owning striker-fired pistols being limited to just a Steyr L9, HK VP9SK and a Walther PPQ 45. I've shot my share of Glocks, though, and I've shot Fidelity's Walther Q5 Match a few times. As much as I've come to appreciate their design and their virtues, I still can't duplicate the same performance I get from my CZ's. It isn't even close.

davsco · Feb 4, 2020

bil has the sig 320 x5 legion and put in the gray guns trigger kit. it is absolutely amazing.

i'm not really a sa/da gun guy but handled and dry fired a recently released cz shadow 2 orange, pretty nice gun.

knastera · Feb 4, 2020

Zzzzz_man said:
Weight was one of the main reasons I switched from the Shadow 2 to a Shadow SP-01 within a few months. The nearly 7oz. weight difference was pretty noticeable when shooting 150-200 rounds during a typical range trip.

Walther definitely wins for ease of take-down but CZ's are remarkably simple to disassemble, too: Line-up the marks on the slide and the frame, push the slide stop thru, bingo.

Seems to me like you've got your mind fairly well made up on the Walther and I won't try to talk ya out of it. It's a damn good pistol. I just happen to consistently shoot hammer-fired guns more accurately than striker-fired and I think that's mainly because of the difference in trigger quality. Well, that and my experience of owning striker-fired pistols being limited to just a Steyr L9, HK VP9SK and a Walther PPQ 45. I've shot my share of Glocks, though, and I've shot Fidelity's Walther Q5 Match a few times. As much as I've come to appreciate their design and their virtues, I still can't duplicate the same performance I get from my CZ's. It isn't even close.

I wouldn’t say my mind is made up one way or the other yet. I went on YouTube and watched a pretty objective comparison of the two guns. I still want to shoot them both. All other things equal, I do prefer hammer fired traditional double action for the range, so I’d tolerate the safety. I didn’t know that CZ had a lighter version of the Shadow. I have a 40 oz. revolver, so I know that I’m comfortable with that weight. I looked it up and it is also right handed exclusively. For $1,600, I want a gun that I can use without compromise, and that means being able to lock and release the slide as a lefty. That’s one reason that I bought the P99 DAO versus the P99 AS.

I’m willing to travel to a range to try both, because at the end of the day, performance is everything, and performance can only be experienced. I live in southern PA and I’m in Baltimore County twice per month, so maybe I’ll find a place.

Czechnologist · Feb 5, 2020

knastera said:
I wouldn’t say my mind is made up one way or the other yet. I went on YouTube and watched a pretty objective comparison of the two guns. I still want to shoot them both. All other things equal, I do prefer hammer fired traditional double action for the range, so I’d tolerate the safety. I didn’t know that CZ had a lighter version of the Shadow. I have a 40 oz. revolver, so I know that I’m comfortable with that weight. I looked it up and it is also right handed exclusively. For $1,600, I want a gun that I can use without compromise, and that means being able to lock and release the slide as a lefty. That’s one reason that I bought the P99 DAO versus the P99 AS.

I’m willing to travel to a range to try both, because at the end of the day, performance is everything, and performance can only be experienced. I live in southern PA and I’m in Baltimore County twice per month, so maybe I’ll find a place.

CZ offers several pistols they call 'Shadow' and it can be downright confusing as to which is which.

Prior to the Shadow 2, which itself is just a more robust and vastly-improved clone of Tanfoglio's Stock 3, the CZ 'Shadow' was a variation of either the standard CZ 75 or SP-01. There are several different configurations. Some were made strictly for target-style competition, while others were set-up more for IPSC/IDPA-style matches with both fixed and fully-adjustable rear sights.

To make things even more confusing, CZ Custom also offers several upgraded versions of the factory Shadow that they call...a Shadow something-or-other. The major difference is in the frames. The SP-01 based Shadow has an accessory rail for mounting lights, etc. and the 75 based Shadow does not. Both are lighter and considerably easier for shooters with small-medium sized hands to operate than the Shadow 2.

knastera · Feb 5, 2020

Zzzzz_man said:
CZ offers several pistols they call 'Shadow' and it can be downright confusing as to which is which.

Prior to the Shadow 2, which itself is just a more robust and vastly-improved clone of Tanfoglio's Stock 3, the CZ 'Shadow' was a variation of either the standard CZ 75 or SP-01. There are several different configurations. Some were made strictly for target-style competition, while others were set-up more for IPSC/IDPA-style matches with both fixed and fully-adjustable rear sights.

To make things even more confusing, CZ Custom also offers several upgraded versions of the factory Shadow that they call...a Shadow something-or-other. The major difference is in the frames. The SP-01 based Shadow has an accessory rail for mounting lights, etc. and the 75 based Shadow does not. Both are lighter and considerably easier for shooters with small-medium sized hands to operate than the Shadow 2.

Thanks. I would not have known that. Now I need to find a range with rentals.

Occam · Feb 5, 2020

Zzzzz_man said:
To make things even more confusing, CZ Custom also offers several upgraded versions of the factory Shadow that they call...a Shadow something-or-other. The major difference is in the frames. The SP-01 based Shadow has an accessory rail for mounting lights, etc. and the 75 based Shadow does not. Both are lighter and considerably easier for shooters with small-medium sized hands to operate than the Shadow 2.

Super-duper good info, there, about CZ's bewildering nomenclature. My wife and I now have his and hers Shadow-things. Hers sits in her (much smaller than mine) hands far better than my Shadow 2. Her 75-based "Tac II" (a kind-of-stock custom shop job from CZ) is definitely a bit lighter, and has an even nicer trigger with a shorter reach. It's a treat to shoot, though I'm now used to the S2's chunkier build - suits my big mitts better. In another thread, I posted photos of the two together. This link should take you into the right part of that thread:

https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=5611509&postcount=26

Hope that sheds light on the differences.

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