New Trust Qs

eddiek2000 said:

So my trust is in the mail. I have signed up for an atf eForms account. Whats next? I plan on building a few suppressors and SBRs in the next few months. I know we have many threads, but the info is very disbursed. I'm looking for insight to building the sbrs and suppressors and adding them to the trust.

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fabsroman said:

Once you get the trust in your hands, you are going to need to submit Form 1 applications and get them approved before you can build anything. You need to get that tax stamp before you can build an NFA item.

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Now, how you go about building the SBR depends on what platform you are using. If an AR, just build an AR and use the barrel length that you applied for on your Form 1.

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Hawkeye said:

This. Once you have your trust in hand, submit the Form 1s and then sit on your hands for however long it takes the ATF. Once you have the stamps, only THEN can you build.

The suppressor or SBR is "added to the trust" only after you have the approved stamp. Once you have it, you build the item and then add it to your Schedule A for the trust. That officially makes the item the property of the trust.

To make it simple: you cant make the suppressor / sbr the property of your trust before it exists, and you cant make it (or cause it to exist) before you have the stamp for it.



Also, if you're doing an AR, you have the option of building it as a pistol now, and just adding the stock later after you get your stamp. That way you can make sure it's running right, shoot it some, etc, all while you're waiting for the ATF to get off their duff. That's what I did, and it's what a lot of people do.

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eddiek2000 said:

Thanks Fabs. How are items added to the trust (It is in the mail, hence I haven't read or seen it).

What about funding of the trust? Does it really require funding?

I actually got the trust to make the suppressors, but since I have quite a few pre 2013 lowers, I might as well make an SBR. I also have a PPS-43C that I would like to enable the stock to be used.

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fabsroman said:

Don't use the pre-FSA2013 lowers for an SBR. Go out and buy new lowers. Making an SBR creates a new gun, so those lowers may no longer be grandfathered under FSA2013 to build an "assault weapon". This is a grey area, but for as cheap as a lower is, no sense even dealing with it.

I bought 3 lowers before I created my trust, so I listed them on Schedule A when I created the trust. I will change Schedule A to list them as a SBR once I get my tax stamps and build the rifles into SBRs.

Your trust needs to be funded to come into being. So, donate a dollar to it. An actual dollar, or $100, or whatever denomination of cash that you want to donate to it. List it on Schedule A and then keep that dollar bill until you have additional property to put into the trust. Then, you can withdraw the cash for your personal use or spend the cash on an NFA item, or even any other property that you want to donate to the trust.

You contribute property to the trust by listing it on Schedule A. If you want to donate real property to the trust, the deed to the real property actually has to be changed, but most of these NFA trusts aren't being used for actual estate planning.

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outrider58 said:

Well, he can always slap a 16'' or longer upper back on the one lower he plans to SBR any time he wants. The caveat being, he has to maintain the ability to change(read swap) the gun back to it's original (SBR) condition at all times AFAIK. You point is well made though.

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fabsroman said:

All of my SBR builds are going to be HBAR builds. Can he put a 16"+ pencil barreled upper on the rifle after he builds it into a SBR, thereby creating a new gun after FSA2013? The Engage lawsuit deals with this to a degree. Is the SBR a rifle or a pistol? Does it really fall under the Copycat provision of 29" or greater? If it does, then is it considered an "assault long gun" if it is not an HBAR?

I need to re-read the statute, but when I looked at this 6+ months ago it was my opinion that an SBR has to be an HBAR. I'll probably discuss this with Andy at Engage before I finally build these SBRs.

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outrider58 said:

You are way better read on this than I, but it's always been my understanding that an SBR lower can be reconfigured in any way OTHER THAN shorter that it's original (SBR) length. This I learned a couple years ago as I was looking into an SBR build. If I'm wrong about this, please someone set me straight. AFAIK, SBRs are considered pistols (you can keep a rifle in your car at all times. Not so for pistols or SBRs sans a CCW) and don't require Hbars. As far as a pencil barrel, I don't know and whenever I guess(applying common sense) I end up wrong.

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fabsroman said:

You are correct that the barrel on the SBR can be made longer than what was listed on the Form 1 or Form 4 application, as long as it can be returned to its original configuration. Might even be some wiggle room about returning it to its original configuration.

Thing is, that is federal law. Then, there is Maryland law.

If a SBR is considered a handgun, then why is it subject to the 29" Copycat regulation that only applies to centerfire rifles.

Crim Law § 4-301(e) Copycat weapon. --
(1) "Copycat weapon" means:
(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
1. a folding stock;
2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
3. a flash suppressor;
(ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;
(iv) a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds;
(v) a semiautomatic shotgun that has a folding stock; or
(vi) a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

So, is a SBR a rifle or a handgun? If it is a handgun, then it can be less than 29" overall. We know the ATF and MSP are taking the position that it is a rifle. This is what the Engage lawsuit is about if I remember correctly.

Next up, is an AR-15 SBR subject to the restrictions in FSA2013. That is, if it is a rifle, is anything other than a HBAR a banned rifle that falls under the definition of an Assault Long Gun, or is an SBR completely outside FSA2013?

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outrider58 said:

The only thing that I've ever been able to take root in my muddled, dyslexic brain is: Sometimes it's a rifle, and sometimes it's a pistol whenever it's convenient to the governing body at hand, it seems.

When I began my trust with Rusty, according to him, SBRs were banned in Md under FSA2013. He was, at that time, offering a ''letter'' that explained why SBRs 'don't really fall within the constraints or FSA2013' to anyone daring to build or buy one. Things changed later on, I'm not sure when or how.

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fabsroman said:

Can you build an AK SBR off of a newly purchased AK? I don't think so. Now, if you have a pre FSA2013 AK, then you can make it into an SBR. Same goes for the AR's. If you have a pre FSA2013 AR lower, then you can make it into a SBR with a pencil sized barrel on it. If you use a post FSA2013 lower for an SBR build, then it has to be HBAR. At least that is my take on it and that is why my post 2013 lowers that I am building into an SBR will be HBAR.

According to federal law, making an SBR is the making of a new gun. So, if you are making a new gun after FSA2013, even with a pre-FSA2013 lower, does that mean the pre FSA2013 lower is now subject to FSA2013? I don't know the answer, so my SBR's will be HBAR and every upper I put on them will be HBAR. These 3 rifles will essentially be my short range and long range rifles. The pre FSA2013 lowers will remain for barrels that are not HBAR.

Rusty lives up the road from me. He and I kick things around every once in a while, but I have not bumped into him since September 2013. Hard to believe 2 years has already flown by.

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outrider58 said:

Yes. Form 1s are for ''Making an NFA item". As for the other stuff, well, you're the lawyer.

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fabsroman said:

Yes to what? I can build an AK-47 off of an AK-47 that I did not own prior to FSA2013?

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Pinecone said:

AFAIK, yes you can built one off a pistol. We do that all the time with AR SBRs.

Or you could build an AK SBR off a stripped receiver. Or have someone like Engage build the SBR for you.

I was under the impression (from some thread at some point), MSP is not applying the banned list to SBRs, just the Copy Cat requirements. So your post-ban lower can be made into a pencil barrel SBR. But if you put a 16+" upper on it, THAT upper needs to be HBAR.

The point of not using a pre-ban lower for an SBR is that you can build a pencil barrel AR on it. And yes, when you Form 1 it, you are creating a new firearm, as you are now the manufacturer (why you have to engrave) and so it would be like selling a pre-ban lower, it becomes post-ban.

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Pinecone said:

AFAIK, yes you can built one off a pistol. We do that all the time with AR SBRs.

Or you could build an AK SBR off a stripped receiver. Or have someone like Engage build the SBR for you.

I was under the impression (from some thread at some point), MSP is not applying the banned list to SBRs, just the Copy Cat requirements. So your post-ban lower can be made into a pencil barrel SBR. But if you put a 16+" upper on it, THAT upper needs to be HBAR.

The point of not using a pre-ban lower for an SBR is that you can build a pencil barrel AR on it. And yes, when you Form 1 it, you are creating a new firearm, as you are now the manufacturer (why you have to engrave) and so it would be like selling a pre-ban lower, it becomes post-ban.

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fabsroman said:

Funny how the Copycat provision applies, but not the barrel diameter limitation on new AR rifles or the ban on certain "rifles", that might be handguns. So, AK-47 rifles are banned, but you can get an AK-47 pistol. Then, a la the San Bernardino terrorists, you can just order a stock and build an illegal rifle right before going out the door and murdering people. The laws make no sense.

I am steering clear of all the unknowns and just going HBAR on the SBR builds with AR-15 HBAR builds. Granted, even that is gray since the Colt HBAR Sporter did not have a barrel shorter than 16".

Ask me how much I despise FSA2013.

OP - sorry for the thread hijack.

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