I'm done with AR15's for now

Motoduck,

I see your point in clearing /mafunction drills with the PS90. It is a lot more difficult as compared to an AR15. However, I think with the high capacity mags, reduction in recoil and muzzle blast compensates for those shortcomings. I use to keep Two 30 rounders loaded with 25 rounds each for reliability for my AR15 ( HD gun). The PS 90 can fire the same amount of rounds without reloading. For HD purposes, I think 50 rounds is more than sufficient.

It is very hard to replace an AR15 in terms of overall performance, but in an SBR format. Ar15s result in excessive blast that is just disorienting and makes my ears ring for days.
It is also not adviseable to fire such a short AR inside vehicles. The blast effect is just compounded. Short ARs also suffer from a substantial decrease in velocity. This makes them a poor choice in terms of ballistic performance.

The PS90 offers an alternative to the AR SBR . The Reduced powder minimizes recoil resulting in better accuracy and follow-up shots. It still fires the 5.56mm projectile and is not prone to the extreme blast like short ARs. The direct blowback action makes it reliable, even in a shortened format.

It is also an easy gun to learn to use efficiently. The ergonomics are excellent and is designed to be fully ambidextrous. The design is very user friendly. I just hate the original white ring sight. What was FN thinking of when they decided to go with that junk. Don't get me wrong, I still love my ARs, For HD, I preffer SBRs , They do well especially in confined spaces/ vehicles. In that application, it is hard to outperform the PS90.

SCARCQB said:

6.5 suppressed AR57.. got one en route. I still like the PS90 SBR better.

As for my AR15s. I'm keeping all of them, I can not fully abandon this platform. As they say" first love never dies". They will join other great guns in the dark corners of the gunsafe. After about a year of firing bullpups extensively, I am starting to understand why the Europeans , Chinese and Israelis have opted for the bullpup design.

Click to expand...

But they dont look as cool.

SCARCQB said:

How about a rifle that is SBR short and still delivers match grade accuracy out of the box? The STG556 delivers.

An STG556 Flat Top/ rail without optics runs about 1250.00 , 1700.00 for the 1.5X optic version. I believe that the E4 version now accepts AR15 mags. Slap in a trigger tamer (www.triggertamer.com) to take care of the trigger issue. Flat top gas piston AR15 run higher ( $1000.00 for Cmmg - $2700 LWRC)

I like the 1.5X optics, it is easy to use with built in BUIS. It is clear with a post( longer range) reticle as an aiming point,encircled by a thick circle for CQB aiming.I have never shot mine pass 120 yards. with good ammo and if I do my part it will group from .75-1.2" at 100 yards.

Additional barrels are also available, 14" sbr, Suppressed with the piston vented into the can, 16" carbine, 20" rifle, 24" DMR and a Heavy BBl with bipod. barrels can be changed out in about 15 seconds without tools. try that with an AR or AK.( Entry type SBR to Countersniper role in about 15 seconds.)

Cleaning them is simple , plus internals dont get dirty. It eats wolf ammo without issues. ( I soak the entire chamber area of the barrel in a glass of solvent. bye bye lacquer/polymer). It also has an adjustable gas system to tweek the action with the ammo being used.

Only drawbacks, Shooting from the right to left is hard, mags are expensive unless you get the A4 version. mag changes are slower compared to the AR15 but up to par with AKs, M1a etc. It doesnt suppress well, as the gas system vents a lot of the noise. ( Most gas piston types do not suppress well, IMHO.. for suppressed applications..you cant beat a standard gas impingement AR)

Click to expand...

SCAR,

I don't know where you got that $2700 quote for a LWRCI, but that is way high. Their top of the line M6A3 was on sale for around $1800 not too long ago and the MRE (FDE) version is around $2200 and that is at dealers that are usually charging top dollar. Their M6, M6A1, and M6A2 carbines are all either below or at the price point of a MSAR. Same goes for a LMT MRP piston gun. POFs are lower. Just to clear something up from that other thread- I did not say AR piston guns are not the greatest. I said that the data is not in. No one has done the testing necessary to make a definitive statement either way.

In terms of this whole thread, I find it interesting that everyone is cooing over the AUG and MSAR. The only comment I'll make is that if one were to see the Aussie SAS in a combat environment, you would see them all using M4s. I have seen it personally- not an AUG in sight. For those that do not know, the AUG has been the Aussie service rifle since the mid-eighties. Another personal experience was training with an Aussie company in the early 90s- there was not much of a love for the AUG, they all wanted to play with the "Armalites". Also, the LMT MRP does give you a reliable quick change barrel capability in an AR platform.

One last thought- I bring this baggage from my military equipping/fielding experience and it applies to the hobbiest realm as well. Everyone wants either what they don't have, what someone else has (usually a cool guy) or what has not been readily available up to that point. Sometimes that desire overrides our better judgement in terms of what is really better for whatever the task.

Kevp said:

SCAR,

I don't know where you got that $2700 quote for a LWRCI, but that is way high. Their top of the line M6A3 was on sale for around $1800 not too long ago and the MRE (FDE) version is around $2200 and that is at dealers that are usually charging top dollar. Their M6, M6A1, and M6A2 carbines are all either below or at the price point of a MSAR. Same goes for a LMT MRP piston gun. POFs are lower. Just to clear something up from that other thread- I did not say AR piston guns are not the greatest. I said that the data is not in. No one has done the testing necessary to make a definitive statement either way.

In terms of this whole thread, I find it interesting that everyone is cooing over the AUG and MSAR. The only comment I'll make is that if one were to see the Aussie SAS in a combat environment, you would see them all using M4s. I have seen it personally- not an AUG in sight. For those that do not know, the AUG has been the Aussie service rifle since the mid-eighties. Another personal experience was training with an Aussie company in the early 90s- there was not much of a love for the AUG, they all wanted to play with the "Armalites". Also, the LMT MRP does give you a reliable quick change barrel capability in an AR platform.

One last thought- I bring this baggage from my military equipping/fielding experience and it applies to the hobbiest realm as well. Everyone wants either what they don't have, what someone else has (usually a cool guy) or what has not been readily available up to that point. Sometimes that desire overrides our better judgement in terms of what is really better for whatever the task.

Click to expand...

I understand your point. But I'm sick of collecting AR15s. I am a civilian now, I don't really deal with military issue stuff anymore. So, I decided to switch to a different platform, not because of any mandate, its just because I can. Like most people here, I enjoy collecting firearms. It doesn't matter what people think, I may have decided on an AUG clone because I think it looks cool.

As for AUGs, the Philippine Army has issued them in limited quantities to some troops to replace the aging M16A1s.They have been superb in terms of reliability and accuracy.Many troops there will opt for an AUG instead of a newer M16A2 or M4. Many foreign forces are switching to M4s because of cost constraints and US pressure. A good example is the Israeli TAVOR, IDF forces depite of developing a good alternative to the AR are still forced to use M4s. it's all about business and politics. As for the Aussies using the Austeyr. They want what they can not have. It's Human nature. When I first enlisted, everyone had M16s. CAR15s, XM177E2s, M4s were only issued to elite troops. Now, everyone is using them , regardless if they are elite or not.

Since I don't rely on government funding. I could not care less of what the US government wants us to believe in.The M16 is being promoted as the latest and greatest. It is almost 50 years old. Retrofitting it with a piston doesn't make it the best.There are many alternatives to the AR platform. Our military is so tied into this system that we are stuck with it. But I'm not. I can probably switch to a SIG552 and you are still going to say negative things about it. You may be experienced in fielding equipment for our forces and show great expertice in that area. But you are limited to what the Military will allow you to play with. As private collectors, we are not bound by those limitations.

Pricing on the latest and greatest gas piston ARs go up and down. Its a fad, compounded by supply and demand. yeah, 2700.00 for a railed LWRC from a local dealer.Ridiculous.That is why I do not own one yet. I am also not a big fan of gas piston ARs. AS a collector, I like weapons that are true to its original form. I will not be using it in combat conditions where it is going to be left dirty, abused and exposed to the elements. It is for a collection. In a bind, I can call upon it to defend myself or others. As for choices in weapons in actual combat. It doesn't matter what you think, if deployed, you will be stuck with whatever uncle sam gives you. Most likely, you will end up with an arsenal refurbished M4

SCARCQB said:

Motoduck,

I see your point in clearing /mafunction drills with the PS90. It is a lot more difficult as compared to an AR15. However, I think with the high capacity mags, reduction in recoil and muzzle blast compensates for those shortcomings. I use to keep Two 30 rounders loaded with 25 rounds each for reliability for my AR15 ( HD gun). The PS 90 can fire the same amount of rounds without reloading. For HD purposes, I think 50 rounds is more than sufficient.

It is very hard to replace an AR15 in terms of overall performance, but in an SBR format. Ar15s result in excessive blast that is just disorienting and makes my ears ring for days.
It is also not adviseable to fire such a short AR inside vehicles. The blast effect is just compounded. Short ARs also suffer from a substantial decrease in velocity. This makes them a poor choice in terms of ballistic performance.

The PS90 offers an alternative to the AR SBR . The Reduced powder minimizes recoil resulting in better accuracy and follow-up shots. It still fires the 5.56mm projectile and is not prone to the extreme blast like short ARs. The direct blowback action makes it reliable, even in a shortened format.

It is also an easy gun to learn to use efficiently. The ergonomics are excellent and is designed to be fully ambidextrous. The design is very user friendly. I just hate the original white ring sight. What was FN thinking of when they decided to go with that junk. Don't get me wrong, I still love my ARs, For HD, I preffer SBRs , They do well especially in confined spaces/ vehicles. In that application, it is hard to outperform the PS90.

Click to expand...

This might be a dumb question, but I wasn't aware the PS90 did 5.56, I thought it was only 5.7x28, was this a typo?

SCAR,

Whatever you say man. I don't care what you own, you are the one that titled it "I'm done with ARs" as if to say AUGs and PS90s are a better answer and you and Slimjim pretty much try and say that through your follow-on posts. I'm just bringing a different perspective. By the way, I've personally collected for a long time. I've owned a PS90 and a 5.7 pistol. I've owned M1As, FALs, Barretts, AR50s, H&Ks, a Vector Uzi, etc. I've bought them with my own money and I am not too proud to say that they were not what I thought they would be if they were not. I don't try to sing their praises because I owned one. I had a lot of confidence in POFs for a while and have owned two. I will tell you in a heartbeat that I don't trust them and would not buy another one. I will admit that a turd is a turd even if I own one. Ask 3rd Rcn or Dan at GC or anyone else that really knows me. I don't go putting down other peoples choices in guns, at least not in public , unless I see blatantly bad poop being put out. Even then I sometimes don't say anything. To everyone else reading this- there has been a metric buttload of bad poop put out by these guys- so reader beware.

I think they'd be fun range guns if they were more affordable. As with anything as complicated as a semi-auto firearm there are alot of different things to consider before making a purchase. As long as one understands the kind of info they are being fed and the circumstances it's being fed I don't take too much issue with someone overhyping or just putting a positive spin on something they like. There wouldn't be much posting going on if you needed a PHD to have a valid opinion. Having said that, it is invaluable to have someone with a pedigree in serious weapon study also offer an opinion.

I wonder...

Aside from the 5.7 being a good plinker with no recoil and (with the right ammo) decent wounding capabilities for good accuracy < 100 yds. What benefits does the M4 provide at the same distance? Is it because of various flavors of .224 projectile that can be loaded into the cartridge?

For home defense, good chance I would use a pistol or a shotgun. For foraging when zombies are around I would take a .223/5.56 and a double stack 45. But for when roving gangs of post-apocaliptic gangs the 5.7 would be a good choice because you can carry a lot of ammo in a small package.

Platform wise, I am used to the m4/m16 cause of my time in service. Lot's of other options out there but as a beginner gun owner/enthusiast I wanted something familiar and it gives me the option to look at other things.


In short, since I only have a FiveSeven. What shortfalls does the 5.7x28 have against the 5.56 cartridge and vice versa?

Ergonomics is a toss up in my mind. Bullpups and PS90's have their own advantage/disadvantage depending on the user. Some say that the M4 platform is a happy medium because it suits everyone. Others say a bullpup will suit everyone, especially with the ambi capabilities and no real need to have them sbrd. I'll leave that argument alone because it's like arguing politics with a liberal.

But could you afford a large quantity of 5.7 ammo. That stuff is not cheap.

Kevp said:

SCAR,

I don't go putting down other peoples choices in guns, at least not in public , unless I see blatantly bad poop being put out. Even then I sometimes don't say anything. To everyone else reading this- there has been a metric buttload of bad poop put out by these guys- so reader beware.

Click to expand...

You just did.

Besides, the word "I" means myself, it refers to no one else other than me.Switching to these weapons is a personal choice. If you don't agree with it, then don't. Unfortunately, most of us do not have the extensive exposure that you claim to have with all these weapons platforms. Finding out what works and what doesn't is part of the fun in collecting firearms. We don't employ professional folks like you to do weapons testing for us, most of us like to do that ourselves.Since you know the outcome of everything involving small arms, doesnt that spoil things for you?you stated:I've owned M1As, FALs, Barretts, AR50s, H&Ks, a Vector Uzi, etc. I've bought them with my own money and I am not too proud to say that they were not what I thought they would be if they were not. I don't try to sing their praises because I owned one. That covers just about what most of us consider as great guns.Depressing. while I understand that there are flaws to each design, which rifle doesn't? Is there a perfect rifle out there? If there is one, you need to let us know.

You claim that the PS90 is bad, but the full auto version is extensively used by the secret service.You argued that those are selective fire and uses restricted ammo. same thing with AR15s, none have selective fire capabilities, by your logic, does that make them crap? AR15/M16 are mediocre at best unless there is a gas piston upper retrofit. C'mon now, 4 grand for an HK416 upper, how practical is that? and 40 years plus of service isnt such a bad deal. AUGs are crap because your Aussie war buddies don't like them, We Americans say the same about our M4s and the Aussies want M4s.

As for warning readers about buttloads of badpoop out there, I agree with you on that. But don't you think people here are smart enough to figure out which is what? and without your wisdom, there will be a flood of bad choices out there. I dont know about you, but most people I know that are into guns do extensive research before spending money on a firearm. It doesn't mean that If we don't own the best, that what we have isn't good enough.

Unfortunately, not everyone likes a piston driven ARs or AKs. We all have choices for now and to each his own.If you think that PS90s and AUGs are crap, then you are entitled to that opinion. You also tend to critique a lot but offer no solutions. I know a Guy at Select Fire who has the same stance as you.

SCARCQB

SCARCQB

I can't disagree with your logic and your points are well taken. I also agree with the follow up shot, muzzle blast issues in confined places. FN beat the pack in the PDW department when they produced the the P90/PS90 (I'm comparing the HK MP7 and Knights PDW with their similar propritary cartridges). The 50 round mag is engineering wonder but it still does me no good if I can't clear a malfunction quickly. If I had to list all the pro's and con's of the PS90 and a SBR AR in a PDW role I will admit the PS90 may win. I guess i'm too stubborn because I am still sticking with the AR.

I hate the white sight on the PS90. A while ago I purchased a diaode light devise that a guy on one of the FN sites was making for the PS90. It is not perfact but it dramaticly improves the stock sight.

motoduck said:

SCARCQB

I can't disagree with your logic and your points are well taken. I also agree with the follow up shot, muzzle blast issues in confined places. FN beat the pack in the PDW department when they produced the the P90/PS90 (I'm comparing the HK MP7 and Knights PDW with their similar propritary cartridges). The 50 round mag is engineering wonder but it still does me no good if I can't clear a malfunction quickly. If I had to list all the pro's and con's of the PS90 and a SBR AR in a PDW role I will admit the PS90 may win. I guess i'm too stubborn because I am still sticking with the AR.

I hate the white sight on the PS90. A while ago I purchased a diaode light devise that a guy on one of the FN sites was making for the PS90. It is not perfact but it dramaticly improves the stock sight.

Click to expand...

I really do not think that you are stubborn in keeping an AR for a PDW role. I had the same reservations initially. I had been using a Colt LE6920 and a OA-23(7.5" shorty) in that role for years. But I was thinking, If I had to use the AR SBR in a defensive role inside my house. The blast issue is a concern, disorientation, being flash blinded after the first shot is a huge liability. some would say overpenetration can lead to bigger issues. That is why i started to look around for an alternative. My wife and kids are scared to fire AR15s at indoor ranges due to the blast issue and really hate training with it.imagine firing an AR SBR indoors after you just woke up at 230am in a HD situation.I dont even know If I can find the extra mags for my AR in that situation. The PS90 has offered them a great alternative. It is so easy to use that my 13 year old daughter likes it a lot( especially with a can attached to it).The PS 90 SBR is also concealable, It will not disorient the firer when used inside vehicles or confined spaces, and doesnt waste powder by producing a fireball when fired. While it is not perfect, I agree with you on the slow/ awkward clearing procedure.But It does have some good point in the PDW role. and what can be better in court than to say" I used a personal defense weapon" in a justifiable HD shooting.

another somewhat random question, is the PS90 regulated in MD? I don't recall the P90 being on the list, so I can't imagine the PS90 is.

Wear your hearing protection!

Bootknife said:

Wear your hearing protection!

Click to expand...

I don't think you are going to have time to put on hearing protection when defending your life , another person in a home defense situation. Also, what you going to do about the Muzzle flash. Wear sunglasses? It is a fact that Short barreled AR15 are just too loud.

Calengor said:

another somewhat random question, is the PS90 regulated in MD? I don't recall the P90 being on the list, so I can't imagine the PS90 is.

Click to expand...

The P90 is a select fire post 86 machinegun. All NFA laws apply to this. Most regular folks like us arent allowed to own one. It is for military and law enforcement use only.

The PS 90 is a civilian version of the P90, it sports a 16.25" barrel and semi auto only. It is not restricted in Maryland and is available for over the counter sales.

SBR PS90s can be purchased as complete NFA guns or a qualified civilian can do the mods themselves with an approved ATF Form 1.

As for ammo, FN rounds ( Sporting rounds, V-max hollow points) sell for about 20 bucks / box of 50 rounds. thats 40 cents/ round. comparable to brass cased 5.56 NATO rounds in cost.

Handloading is also possible with 5.7x28mm ammunition, using .224" bullets (which are widely available due to use in .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges). Due to the size of the chamber, bullets under 45 grains work best in 5.7x28mm applications. 5.7 reloads are sometimes finicky, this is due to lubrication issues with the casing itself. The factory ammo is polymer coated to help it turn 90 degrees before resting in its feed position. This does not affect pistols as they use traditional magazines.

Another bonus is that some 22LR suppressors can be made to work with the PS90 SBR.Several manufacturers have suppressors that work in both 22 LR and 5.7x28mm. I am currently using an AAC M4 2000 mod 7/ blackout flash hider with it and it works fine. Fired outdoors it is hearing safe. ( Not scientific but it is quiet). I have also used a 9mm can for this application and that too also works.

SCARCQB said:

The P90 is a select fire post 86 machinegun. All NFA laws apply to this. Most regular folks like us arent allowed to own one. It is for military and law enforcement use only.

The PS 90 is a civilian version of the P90, it sports a 16.25" barrel and semi auto only. It is not restricted in Maryland and is available for over the counter sales.

SBR PS90s can be purchased as complete NFA guns or a qualified civilian can do the mods themselves with an approved ATF Form 1.

As for ammo, FN rounds ( Sporting rounds, V-max hollow points) sell for about 20 bucks / box of 50 rounds. thats 40 cents/ round. comparable to brass cased 5.56 NATO rounds in cost.

Handloading is also possible with 5.7x28mm ammunition, using .224" bullets (which are widely available due to use in .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges). Due to the size of the chamber, bullets under 45 grains work best in 5.7x28mm applications. 5.7 reloads are sometimes finicky, this is due to lubrication issues with the casing itself. The factory ammo is polymer coated to help it turn 90 degrees before resting in its feed position. This does not affect pistols as they use traditional magazines.

Another bonus is that some 22LR suppressors can be made to work with the PS90 SBR.Several manufacturers have suppressors that work in both 22 LR and 5.7x28mm. I am currently using an AAC M4 2000 mod 7/ blackout flash hider with it and it works fine. Fired outdoors it is hearing safe. ( Not scientific but it is quiet). I have also used a 9mm can for this application and that too also works.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, Scar. If I find myself having an extra 2k I will have to pick one up to add to my tiny collection. Home Defense-wise it seems pretty nice, especially due to the apparent lack of over-penetration with the 5.7x28mm, which is a concern since the back part of my upstairs is someone elses apartment which just has a washer/dryer and a door in the way of a round down the hallway. Size, ambidexterity, and lower recoil/flash/boom are also a plus.

Do you guys think that a 7.62x25 cartridge fireformed and necked down to accept a .224 projectile work in terms of a PDW round?

or how about a 5.7 upper that feeds from a standard box mag? similar to the 9mm conversion.

SCARCQB

A .22 can on the PS90? Can they really hold up? I am not sure I've got the balls to try that. It would be nice to use a smaller, lighter can but I would be concerned about the integrity of the can .22 with that round? I use a AAC M4 2000 on my PS90 SBR and it works well (the flash hider looks good too). Alot quiter then on my M4.

motoduck said:

SCARCQB

A .22 can on the PS90? Can they really hold up? I am not sure I've got the balls to try that. It would be nice to use a smaller, lighter can but I would be concerned about the integrity of the can .22 with that round? I use a AAC M4 2000 on my PS90 SBR and it works well (the flash hider looks good too). Alot quiter then on my M4.

Click to expand...

To clarify this, not all 22LR cans will hold up to the 5.7 round. however, the following 22 cans are rated by the manufacturer to be able to handle the 5.7x28mm.
SWR -Specter
Liberty - Kodiak
Elite Iron- Echo

I have also used a 9mm wet can for this application and it works.