M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

smokey · Oct 11, 2009

Kevp said:
Smokey,

You are making some pretty strong statements here without knowledge of the details of the engagements (i.e. phrasing your second sentence as a question with no ?) and/or detailed knowledge of the reasons why certain ROE restrictions are in place in Theater. For instance, mobile support is anything but in the Hindu Kush mountains- in other words, don't oversimplify the situation.
BTW- while I disagree with your entire 1st paragraph because you don't know what you don't know, I agree in principal with your last sentence except it isn't policy makers- it is leaders at the tactical level.

gotcha. i was just regurgitating one of the posts on here. there was a story of a few guys over there that lost their lives and didnt get the air support they were calling in for because they were sensitive to the collateral damage and all. it's accurate that i don't have first hand knowledge about it and i'm definately not claiming to be an authority on this. the cool thing about the board is if you've heard stories or anecdotes saying one thing and you post it, it'll either get reaffirmed or rebuted. that's what i've been hearing as a non-participant and knowing what i've been told..it got me ticked to think we could be losing our guys based on policy that may or may not exist. the very least, i got alot of friends going over to fight for us and i'd like to think they will get the support needed to come back. i know you know more about this and anything you have to clear up what i've been hearing would be appreciated. from a civilian standpoint it's frustrating to get a patchwork of different stories of how it actually is over there for our guys...i wish we had better reporting.

Markp · Oct 11, 2009

I think the rules of engagement suck.

Mark

Streetgang · Oct 11, 2009

Decoy said:
I would take this report with a grain of salt. I have worked with the Military for years and trust me when I say most of them do not treat their equipment well. Plus who knows where the rifles have been or how many rounds have been fired through them. Trust me no one is keeping track.

I'm not saying the M4 is perfect but without testing when problems occur it's anyone's guess as to what caused the malfunction. It could have been the ammo, magazine or user error who knows.

If you read the article one guy said he fired 360 (12 mags) rounds in under 30 minutes and was complaining that the gun was hot.

I take exception to your statement.
First of all you say you have worked with the military which leads me to believe you were not in the military. And therefore leads me to the conclusion you haven't actually been there. If you have, I retract that statement.
Also, most guys who depend on their weapons for their livelyhood do in fact take care of their weapons and their gear. To say the military doen't take care of gear is simply not true. To say some in the military don't take care of their kit may be more accurate. If that is the case they deserve to hace issues. We used to drive it into everyones head... Take care of your gear FIRST, then your TEAM, and lastly yourself.

I spend 22 years in Naval Special Warfare as an operator. I had one equipment failure in many hundreds of thousands of round put through the M-16 family of weapons. It was an ejection spring on a 727.
I and my teammates took immaculate care of our weapons, all of them.
Yes we do keep track of the number of rounds through the barrels. Is it exact, no but it is pretty damn close. I'd say within a few percentage points of being correct.
360 rounds in under 30 minutes through an M4, while a waste of ammo, is nothing and the weapon can handle it no problem.

Those of you talking about AK's, They are the most rugged battle rifle there is bar none. But that comes at a cost. You can't hit the broadside of a barn with it at 10 yards. (an exageration for sure but you get the idea).

OK off my soapbox. Flame away.

smokey · Oct 11, 2009

Streetgang said:
I take exception to your statement.
First of all you say you have worked with the military which leads me to believe you were not in the military. And therefore leads me to the conclusion you haven't actually been there. If you have, I retract that statement.
Also, most guys who depend on their weapons for their livelyhood do in fact take care of their weapons and their gear. To say the military doen't take care of gear is simply not true. To say some in the military don't take care of their kit may be more accurate. If that is the case they deserve to hace issues. We used to drive it into everyones head... Take care of your gear FIRST, then your TEAM, and lastly yourself.

I spend 22 years in Naval Special Warfare as an operator. I had one equipment failure in many hundreds of thousands of round put through the M-16 family of weapons. It was an ejection spring on a 727.
I and my teammates took immaculate care of our weapons, all of them.
Yes we do keep track of the number of rounds through the barrels. Is it exact, no but it is pretty damn close. I'd say within a few percentage points of being correct.
360 rounds in under 30 minutes through an M4, while a waste of ammo, is nothing and the weapon can handle it no problem.

Those of you talking about AK's, They are the most rugged battle rifle there is bar none. But that comes at a cost. You can't hit the broadside of a barn with it at 10 yards. (an exageration for sure but you get the idea).

OK off my soapbox. Flame away.

streetgang...heres one for u....the piston systems i've seen for the ar's seem to move where the hot gasses are from the reciever to up by the handguard. they still need to be cleaned, but in alot of cases(depending on design) are a b!tch to take apart and clean compared to a regular impingement system when you finally do get around to cleaning them. also they move alot of weight up front and have more pronounced recoil. is there really that big of an advantage to using a piston system compared to just keeping some clp on you to hose down the bcg with every once in a while in a normal m4?

aquaman · Oct 11, 2009

Kevp said:
Wrong. The reason the M16 got a horrible rep in Vietnam is that the Army's logisticians decides to change the powder in the 5.56 ammunition without understanding systems engineering. Eugene Stoner designed the M16 as a system and part of that system was the ammunition. Unfortunately the weapon took the blame for this rather than the knuckleheads that changed the ammo. There is a lot of information out there about these issues.

stick vs ball powder right?

Streetgang · Oct 11, 2009

smokey0118 said:
streetgang...heres one for u....the piston systems i've seen for the ar's seem to move where the hot gasses are from the reciever to up by the handguard. they still need to be cleaned, but in alot of cases(depending on design) are a b!tch to take apart and clean compared to a regular impingement system when you finally do get around to cleaning them. also they move alot of weight up front and have more pronounced recoil. is there really that big of an advantage to using a piston system compared to just keeping some clp on you to hose down the bcg with every once in a while in a normal m4?

Honestly, I don't have alot of experience with the AR's with the gas piston.
That being said, I've always been taught and made sure my BCG was wet. I always kept a bottle of CLP with me everywhere I went. In cold weather we would switch to LSAT but still kept it well lubricated. I personally have no complaints with the M-16 family of weapons. THeat being said, they are not the right weapons for every mission either. We trained on quite a few weapons including, MP5's and M-14's. I really love the M14, just hate to carry it and associated ammo.

Splitter · Oct 11, 2009

Kevp said:
Wrong. The reason the M16 got a horrible rep in Vietnam is that the Army's logisticians decides to change the powder in the 5.56 ammunition without understanding systems engineering. Eugene Stoner designed the M16 as a system and part of that system was the ammunition. Unfortunately the weapon took the blame for this rather than the knuckleheads that changed the ammo. There is a lot of information out there about these issues.

While I agree about the ball powder, that's not the only reason. That was but one reason the M16 had initial problems. The rifle was issued without cleaning kits because it was believed that it didn't need to be cleaned. The change in powder certainly made the problem worse....but what firearm does not require cleaning? A forward assist was also a later addition for the Army as was chroming.

Hey, I have no doubt that you know more about the M16 platform than I do. I'm just saying the problems were multiple. I'm a history buff and come at it from that perspective which leads me to the conclusion that it was rushed into service (after initially being shunned by the old guard) .

We should not give up on a now proven platform without a fully tested (in the field too!) substitute.

We agree on much more than we disagree.

Spltiter

Streetgang · Oct 11, 2009

Splitter said:
While I agree about the ball powder, that's not the only reason. That was but one reason the M16 had initial problems. The rifle was issued without cleaning kits because it was believed that it didn't need to be cleaned. The change in powder certainly made the problem worse....but what firearm does not require cleaning? A forward assist was also a later addition for the Army as was chroming.

Hey, I have no doubt that you know more about the M16 platform than I do. I'm just saying the problems were multiple. I'm a history buff and come at it from that perspective which leads me to the conclusion that it was rushed into service (after initially being shunned by the old guard) .

We should not give up on a now proven platform without a fully tested (in the field too!) substitute.

We agree on much more than we disagree.

Spltiter

You guys are both correct, but to assume the M-16 family of weapons are flawed because of the growing pains in the beginning is really a stretch.

Kevp · Oct 11, 2009

Streetgang said:
You guys are both correct, but to assume the M-16 family of weapons are flawed because of the growing pains in the beginning is really a stretch.

Roger. Just about every weapon system that has ever been fielded has been subject to upgrades based on unforeseen issues and/or operator input. There is so much BS out there- it is amazing.

Decoy · Oct 11, 2009

Streetgang said:
I take exception to your statement.
First of all you say you have worked with the military which leads me to believe you were not in the military. And therefore leads me to the conclusion you haven't actually been there. If you have, I retract that statement.
Also, most guys who depend on their weapons for their livelyhood do in fact take care of their weapons and their gear. To say the military doen't take care of gear is simply not true. To say some in the military don't take care of their kit may be more accurate. If that is the case they deserve to hace issues. We used to drive it into everyones head... Take care of your gear FIRST, then your TEAM, and lastly yourself.

I spend 22 years in Naval Special Warfare as an operator. I had one equipment failure in many hundreds of thousands of round put through the M-16 family of weapons. It was an ejection spring on a 727.
I and my teammates took immaculate care of our weapons, all of them.
Yes we do keep track of the number of rounds through the barrels. Is it exact, no but it is pretty damn close. I'd say within a few percentage points of being correct.
360 rounds in under 30 minutes through an M4, while a waste of ammo, is nothing and the weapon can handle it no problem.

Those of you talking about AK's, They are the most rugged battle rifle there is bar none. But that comes at a cost. You can't hit the broadside of a barn with it at 10 yards. (an exageration for sure but you get the idea).

OK off my soapbox. Flame away.

I'm glad you and your ship mates took care of your weapons, that has not been my experience. While individuals may take care of the weapon they are issued, I was speaking in a broader sense. Once you PCS from a combat unit your weapon goes where? and is there is a log attached to the weapon?

K-Romulus · Oct 11, 2009

I think it is probably the "lube" issue (not enough lube being applied), but what do I know.

Streetgang · Oct 11, 2009

Decoy said:
I'm glad you and your ship mates took care of your weapons, that has not been my experience. While individuals may take care of the weapon they are issued, I was speaking in a broader sense. Once you PCS from a combat unit your weapon goes where? and is there is a log attached to the weapon?

Not sure what your experience is. By what you've posted so far, its not active duty, so I'm not sure how you can, with authority, say such a thing.
And yes, by instruction, there is a weapons log for every weapon. If I ever caught an armorer not keeping the log or gundecking it, I would have made it my business to bring him to CO's mast.

... · Oct 11, 2009

what is the best solution here?

probably stay with the M4, the shear logistics of getting a new rifle would be impossible. We do a lot of business with FN, do they have something good?

smokey · Oct 11, 2009

... said:
what is the best solution here?

probably stay with the M4, the shear logistics of getting a new rifle would be impossible. We do a lot of business with FN, do they have something good?

scar? i believe some politicians from down south were doing alot of looking into a replacement for the m4's and pointing towards the rifle made in their backyard. could be where alot of this is coming from.

... · Oct 11, 2009

smokey0118 said:
scar? i believe some politicians from down south were doing alot of looking into a replacement for the ar's and pointing towards the rifle made in their backyard. could be where alot of this is coming from.

yeah man, your talking about the guy from Oklahoma said
[qoute]Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in[/qoute]

Is the SCAR really the answer, the logistics and costs would be less since we already deal a lot with FN.

... · Oct 11, 2009

I'd like to see flame throwers and Mark 19's all over these outposts, that'd stop them from getting overrun. I believe that was the situation, the taliban knows where a small outpost is, gets a few hundred people and attacks it.

aquaman · Oct 11, 2009

smokey0118 said:
scar? i believe some politicians from down south were doing alot of looking into a replacement for the ar's and pointing towards the rifle made in their backyard. could be where alot of this is coming from.

I hope so, Its kind of ridiculous that the world's only superpower would not make all their own weapons. Not saying FN does not make good stuff, i know better.

... · Oct 11, 2009

aquaman said:
I hope so, Its kind of ridiculous that the world's only superpower would not make all their own weapons. Not saying FN does not make good stuff, i know better.

FN USA is big and a lot of our engineers/designer are hired by them. Although they are a private company and Americas have a good bit invested.

maybe we should all lobby for the SCAR and then invest a lot.

where is their USA plant/cooperate HQ

smokey · Oct 11, 2009

aquaman said:
I hope so, Its kind of ridiculous that the world's only superpower would not make all their own weapons. Not saying FN does not make good stuff, i know better.

we do make our own weapons...berettas are made here and m4's are made in conneticut and most everything else is made by fn in south carolina...i was referring to politicians in the south wanting to pull more business down to the south away from the manufacturing in the north

smokey · Oct 11, 2009

... said:
FN USA is big and a lot of our engineers/designer are hired by them. Although they are a private company and Americas have a good bit invested.

maybe we should all lobby for the SCAR and then invest a lot.

where is their USA plant/cooperate HQ

headquarters for advertising and such is in mclean, va...manufacturing is in columbia sc

M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

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