Legalities of an AR 80% lower

svana · Jan 23, 2013

Hey guys,
I was thinking about the reasoning and methods behind an 80% lower, and was curious about a few things. Hoping someone could shed some light on the subject. I'm not intending to get into dealing with an 80%, just satisfying my curiosity.

Since you don't need an FFL dealer to purchase, you can have it shipped to wherever you like, correct? It doesn't have a serial number,and in it's 80% state, it's just an expensive paperweight. However, once you bore it out with either a mill, press, what have you, it's a fully functional lower receiver, but it still has no serial. What is the legal stance on it? Would police take the same stance that they do with weapons that have the serial numbers shaved off, in that they simply destroy them? Are 80%'ers considered legal to own as long as you don't bore them out, once you do they're considered illegal? and they just stay "out of sight, out of mind"? Since people don't have to keep track of who they sell them to, nobody knows who owns one. I figure shops wouldn't be able to sell them if they were illegal.

The way I'm understanding it perhaps is that it's similar to a glass smoking pipe in the fact that it's not illegal on it's own, but is illegal when used with an illegal substance? Obviously (certain) AR parts aren't illegal (yet), but it's more a matter of it is legal until certain actions are taken.

Speed3 · Jan 23, 2013

I don't know the legalities of it either...interested to see some responses.

jonnyl · Jan 23, 2013

I don't know much about it, but I think your actual questions are a little unclear. Are you asking how things are now, or how they MAY be based on a guess at possible legislation?

As of today, starting with an 80% lower and turning it into an AR15 is not illegal (as long as all work is done yourself and it is for personal use). So it's not quite like the bong analogy.

No crystal ball for the future...

04RWon · Jan 23, 2013

Let me know where you can find one in stock

svana · Jan 23, 2013

jonnyl said:
I don't know much about it, but I think your actual questions are a little unclear. Are you asking how things are now, or how they MAY be based on a guess at possible legislation?

As of today, starting with an 80% lower and turning it into an AR15 is not illegal (as long as all work is done yourself and it is for personal use). So it's not quite like the bong analogy.

No crystal ball for the future...

Everything in the current state of things. I was just curious about the legalities of turning an 80% into a 100% for yourself since you would then technically own a firearm with no serial number. I hadn't thought about transfers though, what if you transferred it to your son, or brother, or father? Hell, since it has no serial, you could in theory give it to whoever?

iSHOOT · Jan 23, 2013

In my googling I wondered the same thing. I watched a few people on youtube that said it was legal to make your own weapon and as long as its not for sale you didn't need a serial number. It didn't seem right to me so I did some clicking around the ATF website and from the way it reads, you only need a serial number and manufacturer's license if you plan to sell a weapon. If you're buying a 80 yourself, drilling it yourself and KEEPING it yourself, you're good to go. Its illegal to remove a serial number from a firearm but not to leave one off. Its like reloading ammo. You're not a manufacturer until you start selling it.

As far as state laws, I'm not sure if there are any, and how an officer or range would react seeing one without a serial number I'd rather not find out.

Speed3 · Jan 23, 2013

So the SBR'S rifles apply or not?

Markp · Jan 23, 2013

svana said:
Hey guys,
I was thinking about the reasoning and methods behind an 80% lower, and was curious about a few things. Hoping someone could shed some light on the subject. I'm not intending to get into dealing with an 80%, just satisfying my curiosity.

ANSWERS IN BOLD

Since you don't need an FFL dealer to purchase, you can have it shipped to wherever you like, correct?

Yes, AFAIK, but California and other communist states might be different, from a federal standpoint you can ship it anywhere.

It doesn't have a serial number,and in it's 80% state, it's just an expensive paperweight. However, once you bore it out with either a mill, press, what have you, it's a fully functional lower receiver, but it still has no serial. What is the legal stance on it?

Once it can do two of the following: Accept a fire control group, accept a barrel, or accept a magazine, it becomes a receiver per the ATF. As an unlicensed person you do not need to place any markings on the receiver. No serial number required, but it is a firearm.

Would police take the same stance that they do with weapons that have the serial numbers shaved off, in that they simply destroy them?

No, they should not, because the serial numbers were not altered or obliterated, they never existed. Unless state law requires marking, no serial numbers are needed (some states require ALL firearms to be serialized).

Are 80%'ers considered legal to own as long as you don't bore them out, once you do they're considered illegal?

They are legal either way as long as there is not a state law that does not prohibit it.

and they just stay "out of sight, out of mind"?

They stay out of sight and out of mind anyway, contrary to popular belief you don't need to regulate and license everything people do.

Since people don't have to keep track of who they sell them to, nobody knows who owns one. I figure shops wouldn't be able to sell them if they were illegal.

And this is a bad thing why? Nobody knows whether I've built my own nunchucks or sex toys either... So what?

Obviously (certain) AR parts aren't illegal (yet), but it's more a matter of it is legal until certain actions are taken.

In Maryland, currently, there are NO illegal AR parts. There is nothing that will be illegal in the current law regarding parts, just the weapons will be banned at this point. Why do you believe it's only a matter of time before parts will be banned?

My 2 cents.

crfakm4 · Jan 23, 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by svana
Hey guys,
I was thinking about the reasoning and methods behind an 80% lower, and was curious about a few things. Hoping someone could shed some light on the subject. I'm not intending to get into dealing with an 80%, just satisfying my curiosity.

ANSWERS IN BOLD

Since you don't need an FFL dealer to purchase, you can have it shipped to wherever you like, correct?

Yes, AFAIK, but California and other communist states might be different, from a federal standpoint you can ship it anywhere.

It doesn't have a serial number,and in it's 80% state, it's just an expensive paperweight. However, once you bore it out with either a mill, press, what have you, it's a fully functional lower receiver, but it still has no serial. What is the legal stance on it?

Once it can do two of the following: Accept a fire control group, accept a barrel, or accept a magazine, it becomes a receiver per the ATF. As an unlicensed person you do not need to place any markings on the receiver. No serial number required, but it is a firearm.[/B]

Would police take the same stance that they do with weapons that have the serial numbers shaved off, in that they simply destroy them?

No, they should not, because the serial numbers were not altered or obliterated, they never existed. Unless state law requires marking, no serial numbers are needed (some states require ALL firearms to be serialized).

Are 80%'ers considered legal to own as long as you don't bore them out, once you do they're considered illegal?

They are legal either way as long as there is not a state law that does not prohibit it.

and they just stay "out of sight, out of mind"?

They stay out of sight and out of mind anyway, contrary to popular belief you don't need to regulate and license everything people do.

Since people don't have to keep track of who they sell them to, nobody knows who owns one. I figure shops wouldn't be able to sell them if they were illegal.

And this is a bad thing why? Nobody knows whether I've built my own nunchucks or sex toys either... So what?

Obviously (certain) AR parts aren't illegal (yet), but it's more a matter of it is legal until certain actions are taken.

In Maryland, currently, there are NO illegal AR parts. There is nothing that will be illegal in the current law regarding parts, just the weapons will be banned at this point. Why do you believe it's only a matter of time before parts will be banned?

My 2 cents.

Quoted in red, do you have a letter from the ATF stating this?

marte616 · Jan 23, 2013

04RWon said:
Let me know where you can find one in stock

GB has a couple of 80%....rguns has lower forgings for $20

04RWon · Jan 24, 2013

marte616 said:
GB has a couple of 80%....rguns has lower forgings for $20

They are probably expensive on GB

SigMatt · Feb 3, 2013

80 percent or less firearms are interesting because we operate on a funny principle in this country: That which is not explicitly forbidden is legal.

There is actually no specific law barring you from making your own firearm. Since it isn't illegal, it is legal by default. The law does spell out restrictions on the final form a firearm may take but that is general law that applies across the board.

Effectively, as long as what you are planning to build isn't illegal or otherwise restricted under Federal, State or local law, you can make it for your own personal use. At a minimum, no machine guns (per Federal) or certain "assault pistols" (per Maryland).

Until you finish an 80% past 80%, it is a piece of gun shaped metal. Not a firearm by the legal definition. An unbent AK flat is a piece of sheet metal, a 1911 uncut frame is a curiosity, a AR-15 0% to 80% forging is just a paperweight.

You cannot sell homemade firearms. On this, I believe, there is no exception. Once you do, you qualify as a "manufacturer" under the law and now you're building firearms for sale without a license. Serial numbers doesn't factor into it.

You're not committing a crime. You're not in a gray area just because the law says you can or cannot do this. But do be very, very aware of the regulations regarding it. Especially 18 USC 922(r). While it doesn't apply to AR-15s since the parts are dosmetically made, it does apply to foreign rifles and parts.

Building from 80% or less is just very uncommon. But it is enjoyable and fun if you like to work with your hands and get to know guns really well. It also allows you a degree of customization a stock rifle or pistol does not.

Matt

Kingjamez · Feb 3, 2013

mpickering said:
You cannot sell homemade firearms. On this, I believe, there is no exception. Once you do, you qualify as a "manufacturer" under the law and now you're building firearms for sale without a license. Serial numbers doesn't factor into it.

Matt

There is guidance from the ATF on how to sell a homemade firearm: Serialize it and sell it. You may not manufacture a firearm specifically for resale, unless you are a licensed manufacturer.

-Jim

ColonelHurtz · Feb 3, 2013

You may make a firearm for your own personal use.
You may not be a "Prohibited" person and the firearm you create must conform to existing laws.
You may not "manufacture" firearms with the intent to sell or otherwise distribute them without a federal license.

SigMatt · Feb 3, 2013

Kingjamez said:
There is guidance from the ATF on how to sell a homemade firearm: Serialize it and sell it. You may not manufacture a firearm specifically for resale, unless you are a licensed manufacturer.

-Jim

Agreed and thanks for the info. But what is the line? Just like with liquidating a private collection, when does it cross into the area of "in the business of selling firearms"?

My interpretation is if I build a gun and sell it to a friend, even as a favor, I fear the ATF would interpret that as manufacturing for the purpose of sale. Just something I prefer not to mess with.

Matt

km04 · Feb 3, 2013

Has anyone here ever finished an 80% lower? How hard is it to do?

phx223 · Feb 3, 2013

km04 said:
Has anyone here ever finished an 80% lower? How hard is it to do?

Check out calguns, 80% builds are very common in Cali.

jonnyl · Feb 3, 2013

mpickering said:
Agreed and thanks for the info. But what is the line? Just like with liquidating a private collection, when does it cross into the area of "in the business of selling firearms"?

My interpretation is if I build a gun and sell it to a friend, even as a favor, I fear the ATF would interpret that as manufacturing for the purpose of sale. Just something I prefer not to mess with.

Matt

The ATF's view might depend on whether you had it for 5 years before selling it to your friend, or decided the day after it was finished...

SigMatt · Feb 3, 2013

km04 said:
Has anyone here ever finished an 80% lower? How hard is it to do?

Depends on the lower. The ATF changed the rules on what constituted an 80% AR lowers a couple years ago. It generally requires a drill press and a Dremel or a milling bit to clean out the FCG pocket. Older lowers you got by with just a drill press. You can do it with a vice and a regular electric drill but a press makes it much easier and the cost of a decent, if cheap, press is on par on the cost of the vice and hand drill.

Get the drilling jig associated with the lower you're looking it. Makes the process much easier. Toolwise, a drill press, some cutting oil and a solid X/Y vice on the table is what is usually required. And patience. Measure, check, measure before you drill. After that, the usual tools required for the lower parts kit. It's handy to have that on hand too when building.

ARs are generally the easiest to start with 80% work on as most of the hard work is already done on the lower for you. AKs are the next step up and require more time and specialty tools to pull off. For AKs, you want several spare flats on hand, just in case.

Matt

km04 · Feb 3, 2013

I am thinking I may want to try doing this. Does the press have to be one of the stand up type? Can someone show/recommend one? Would it be easier to try and rent one/time on one than buying one?

Legalities of an AR 80% lower

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