Anyone else have problems with Frontier Ammunition?

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    meh. You can do a heck of a lot better than 5" from a bench at 100 yds, but its not the ammo. You can get 1.5" or better with cheap American eagle 55gr boat tail, the cheapest brass cased stuff available (now about .25/round with rebate). Your barrel, rail, trigger (and you!) matter most. My rifle can get 90% of shots within a 3" ring at 200 yds with AE 223. The max spread on my last 9 shot group with AE 223 at 200yds was 4.2." If you have a good set up (i.e. match grade barrel, and nice trigger) and half decent technique (my technique is only half decent I can assure you), you ought to be able to do way better even with cheap ammo. I once had a guy shoot one hole groups at 100 yds with one of my rifles with cheap steel case ammo, proving to me it was me and not the rifle or the ammo.

    I am glad I saw this thread, I was about to pick up some cheap Frontier. Now, not so much.

    It depends on the gun still. My precision AR turns in 1MOA or a little better depending on the match ammo. It does not like 55gr ball. The best I can manage is 2MOA with 55gr ball and Federal runs like crap out of it. The best 10 shot group I have ever managed was 2.5MOA with .223. XM193 and worse, XM855 tend to be more like 3-3.5MOA 10 shot groups out of it.

    IMI does the best with about 1.8MOA for M193 (about the same for their .223 55gr FMJ) and their M855 is typically 1.2MOA 10 shot groups, but I get the occasional flier out of it that will push it closer to 2MOA, but I only typically get about 1 in 10-15 fliers. PPU69gr, Gold Dot 64gr and a couple of other loadings will get down to about .9MOA 10 shot groups.

    That is a sample size of 1 gun though. My 16" has only ever had a red dot on it and it has a new barrel. So maybe it will do better than my 20" will with federal (fingers crossed).
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    I assume the setup is an AR15 with a scope?

    A physicist, engineer, and and economist were stuck on a desert island and had one unopened can of beans. The physicist proposed launching it into the air. Since F=ma, the can would open when it hit the ground. The engineer proposed putting it in the fire until the beans inside heated, and presto, the can would open from steam pressure. The economist said "Assume we had a can opener"

    ;)

    Yes, you can assume a good match grade barrel, trigger, handguard, and scope, in addition to technique, on an AR15 will print you nice groups. But really, any rifle.
     

    dist1646

    Ultimate Member
    May 1, 2012
    8,758
    Eldersburg
    Last week I was at AGC and a guy in the next lane was shooting this ammo hitting a 5 inch plate like 28 out of 30 rounds. He did it time-and-time again (like 10 magazines over a few hours). Walked over and asked if he was shooting match ammo. "No Frontier 55 grain ball"...

    Sounds like somebody needs to practice more!
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Or maybe more specifically: it depends on the barrel and trigger. You are right, some barrels wont like cheap ammo.

    Lol, true.

    I am trying to figure out what is going on with my 16" build. I think I have an optics issue, but I rebarreled it because the dirt cheap barrel ($40 on sale, wasn't even dimpled for a gas block) just couldn't do better than 3MOA. Well this new one, Classic Firearms, is maybe not a Faxon, but I have another similar quality CF barrel in my 6.5 Grendel build that is 1MOA with boring regularity with everything I have put through it (except Wolf Steel, which it HATES. 6MOA).

    Well I feed it a box of PMC Bronze which normally doesn't shoot great in my 20" and it turned in slightly less than 2MOA groups at 50yds with a 3MOA red dot and no name 3x magnifier. Then all of my groups went to hell with the other 80 odd rounds I feed it of both 55gr, 69gr and 75 FMJ and match ammo, but then my very final group of the day turned in 1.5MOA with 69gr match and ONLY the red dot, no magnifier at 50yds.

    I think I've got an optics issue and not a barrel or other issue going on. I'll find out in a week or two when I can get back to the range with a spare red dot, BUIS AND a scope and mounts in tow to swap out optics.

    Anyway, I have some hope that this new build will like cheap ammo. My 20" certainly doesn't (other than, curiously IMI. Well, I mean they aren't dirt cheap, but my 20" doesn't seem to like anything other than match ammo. That rifle is ALSO getting rebarreled soon and I will lap the upper at the same time).
     

    armed_economist

    Active Member
    Dec 4, 2017
    429
    A physicist, engineer, and and economist were stuck on a desert island and had one unopened can of beans. The physicist proposed launching it into the air. Since F=ma, the can would open when it hit the ground. The engineer proposed putting it in the fire until the beans inside heated, and presto, the can would open from steam pressure. The economist said "Assume we had a can opener"

    ;)

    Yes, you can assume a good match grade barrel, trigger, handguard, and scope, in addition to technique, on an AR15 will print you nice groups. But really, any rifle.

    If an economist assumes he can shoot more accurately by going from an AR15 to an entry level bolt action rifle in 223 without upgrading ammo (in the 25 cpr range, wolf gold, federal, etc), would that work? The other important assumption is that economist is pretty new to guns and a mediocre shot at best (actually take that as the true state of the world, not an assumption).
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    If an economist assumes he can shoot more accurately by going from an AR15 to an entry level bolt action rifle in 223 without upgrading ammo (in the 25 cpr range, wolf gold, federal, etc), would that work? The other important assumption is that economist is pretty new to guns and a mediocre shot at best (actually take that as the true state of the world, not an assumption).

    what AR do you have, what accuracy are you getting, what set up (scope, etc?)?
     

    armed_economist

    Active Member
    Dec 4, 2017
    429
    what AR do you have, what accuracy are you getting, what set up (scope, etc?)?

    I have a LWRC individual carbine with heavy barrel. Have only shot it with a red dot (holosun 510c), but never shot to 50 yards even and never bench rested. Have shot paper targets and water bottles, seem to be hitting generally where I want it to when I'm doing my part, but never really measured the accuracy such as group size.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    I have a LWRC individual carbine with heavy barrel. Have only shot it with a red dot (holosun 510c), but never shot to 50 yards even and never bench rested. Have shot paper targets and water bottles, seem to be hitting generally where I want it to when I'm doing my part, but never really measured the accuracy such as group size.

    I think you should be able to get excellent accuracy out of that. If you cannot get excellent accuracy out of that rifle probably you need a lot of practice, maybe a scope, and/or spend money on a class. I cannot hit shit with a red dot, so i'd suggest a scope. As for practice I suggest steel. It gives you instant feedback, no need to look in the spotting scope or go downrange. Start with a big pie plate 8" at 100yds one and reduce it to 6" and 4". I feel reasonably certain I could hit a 6" ring at 200yds with your rifle and a scope, from a bench, even with cheap ammo. I've seen it done, because some guys have those for 3-gun, so if I can't do it its likely me.

    You could buy an inexpensive bolt gun (like a Savage) that's theoretically more accurate. However, without more practice, a scope, and/or a class you probably will not experience any accuracy difference.
     

    armed_economist

    Active Member
    Dec 4, 2017
    429
    I think you should be able to get excellent accuracy out of that. If you cannot get excellent accuracy out of that rifle probably you need a lot of practice, maybe a scope, and/or spend money on a class. I cannot hit shit with a red dot, so i'd suggest a scope. As for practice I suggest steel. It gives you instant feedback, no need to look in the spotting scope or go downrange. Start with a big pie plate 8" at 100yds one and reduce it to 6" and 4". I feel reasonably certain I could hit a 6" ring at 200yds with your rifle and a scope, from a bench, even with cheap ammo. I've seen it done, because some guys have those for 3-gun, so if I can't do it its likely me.

    You could buy an inexpensive bolt gun (like a Savage) that's theoretically more accurate. However, without more practice, a scope, and/or a class you probably will not experience any accuracy difference.

    Thank you. I don't have the means to shoot steel anywhere unfortunately. I've been looking into bolt action rifles, but I agree that I may be better off getting a scope first and test out the limits of my AR while improving my skills.

    I'm not ready for the reloading game, what ammo choice do I have for improved accuracy on a budget? I love wolf gold 223, but is there anything better at a not much higher cost? When I do get a bolt rifle, I'm still learning toward 223, just because it's cheaper to shoot and I don't have access to long distance ranges where calibers make a real difference in performance.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Thank you. I don't have the means to shoot steel anywhere unfortunately. I've been looking into bolt action rifles, but I agree that I may be better off getting a scope first and test out the limits of my AR while improving my skills.

    I'm not ready for the reloading game, what ammo choice do I have for improved accuracy on a budget? I love wolf gold 223, but is there anything better at a not much higher cost? When I do get a bolt rifle, I'm still learning toward 223, just because it's cheaper to shoot and I don't have access to long distance ranges where calibers make a real difference in performance.

    its hard to answer without establishing a baseline. Improve from what? What is "seem to be hitting generally where I want it to when I'm doing my part." whats the goal? Pie plate at 200 yards, or ground hogs at 600 yards?

    You can shoot steel at AGC :D
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    You might want to check the bolt with a magnifying glass or a microscope.

    I would have headapce checked too.

    It appears to be fine with a go/no-go gauge on head space. I can look at the bolt, but the accuracy issues happened with two different bolts. I shot 20 rounds with great accuracy, switched up to XM193 and accuracy was crap. Shot a few of Hornady steel case match and the same 6-8MOA accuracy. Halfway through a box of PPU .223 55gr I swapped from the PSA parked BCG to the Brownell's nitrided BCG from my 20" and scrubbed the bore a bunch and no change in accuracy. I then ran the rest of the box of steel match through my 20" (good accuracy, better than 1 MOA, but it produces occasional fliers which open up the group unacceptably, about 1 in 6 are an inch or more from the main group).

    I then shot a few Frontier 55gr HPBT in the 20" and the other half of the box through the 16" and still bad accuracy on the 16". Finally I broke out a box of 69gr PPU HPBT and the first 15 rounds were crap. I took the magnifier off and the last 5 shot group was 1.2MOA. Same general range of accuracy as that first box I put through it, PMC Bronze 55gr .223

    Best guess I have is a magnifier issue. In there I noticed it was coming loose and almost falling off. I hand tightened the mount and moved it back one spot on my rail, but it was loose again when I went to take it off for that final group. The red dot (TRS-25) is solid in the mount, zero play and the screws are tight (blue locktite on them, but I carefully checked that 3-4ft-lb wasn't backing them out).

    I am taking Outriders suggestion of lapping the upper and bedding the barrel extension with locktite. Both to help with accuracy and remove any chance that a really out of square receiver could have even a tiny bit to do with this (I can't imagine how). Just waiting on the lapping tool to show up.

    I am planning on taking BUIS, a spare TRS-25 I have AND the scope and mount from my 20" back to the range with me and spending a couple of hours swapping optics around to see how it does. Post lapping and bedding of course.

    I just wish I had more time and ammo with me so I could have shot another few groups with just the red dot to see if it was shooting well without the magnifier (the box of PMC Bronze I think I shot the entire thing with the magnifier also).
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Thank you. I don't have the means to shoot steel anywhere unfortunately. I've been looking into bolt action rifles, but I agree that I may be better off getting a scope first and test out the limits of my AR while improving my skills.

    I'm not ready for the reloading game, what ammo choice do I have for improved accuracy on a budget? I love wolf gold 223, but is there anything better at a not much higher cost? When I do get a bolt rifle, I'm still learning toward 223, just because it's cheaper to shoot and I don't have access to long distance ranges where calibers make a real difference in performance.

    There's plenty of ammo out there better than Wolf Gold, but if you're looking for something measurably better, you're gonna have to pay for it. There's no point in shooting comparative ammo and expect a better outcome.

    Realize you will never shoot your gun better than "the gun can shoot". That means shooting the hell out of your gun and wringing out every bit of accuracy possible. Once you get to the point you can recognize a good day at the range from a bad day, there you'll find your baseline.

    ...or I'm just babbling
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    There's plenty of ammo out there better than Wolf Gold, but if you're looking for something measurably better, you're gonna have to pay for it. There's no point in shooting comparative ammo and expect a better outcome.

    Realize you will never shoot your gun better than "the gun can shoot". That means shooting the hell out of your gun and wringing out every bit of accuracy possible. Once you get to the point you can recognize a good day at the range from a bad day, there you'll find your baseline.

    ...or I'm just babbling

    Well said!
     

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