Registration Problem

BlueHeeler · Jul 26, 2010

I am trying to register a Yugo M57 in DC. The problem is it is not on the C&R list because it is C&R by virtue of age. The police officer will not register the gun because he cannot see it on a list.

Is there a way to prove the age of the gun??? :shrug:

ATF says on the matter: “Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.”

I am going back over this afternoon to try to talk to the guy and explain why the gun is not on the list. Any tips?

Edit: Does the date of manufacture to attain C&R status mean the date of production of my specific gun or for the 1957 beginning of production of M57s?

Inigoes · Jul 26, 2010

You might want to show that exact citation to the police officer

BlueHeeler · Jul 26, 2010

Inigoes said:
You might want to show that exact citation to the police officer

I have it printed an ready to go.

BeltBuckle · Jul 26, 2010

if that doesn't work you might be able to get a letter from BATF that would help. "C&R for DC Govt Dummies" like.

Good luck!! keep us posted!

Chaunsey · Jul 26, 2010

BlueHeeler said:
I am trying to register a Yugo M57 in DC. The problem is it is not on the C&R list because it is C&R by virtue of age. The police officer will not register the gun because he cannot see it on a list.

Is there a way to prove the age of the gun???

ATF says on the matter: “Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.”

I am going back over this afternoon to try to talk to the guy and explain why the gun is not on the list. Any tips?

Edit: Does the date of manufacture to attain C&R status mean the date of production of my specific gun or for the 1957 beginning of production of M57s?

it's based on the individual guns production date.

but maybe you can convince the guy the m57 meaning model of 1957 is proof enough.

BlueHeeler · Jul 27, 2010

Chaunsey said:
it's based on the individual guns production date.

but maybe you can convince the guy the m57 meaning model of 1957 is proof enough.

How can I (or anyone) know the production date? :shrug:

It seems as though it would be illegal to sell any 50 year gun as a C&R without production documentation specific to that gun. I know that is not the case.

Time to call the ATF. :cool:

Chaunsey · Jul 27, 2010

BlueHeeler said:
How can I (or anyone) know the production date?

It seems as though it would be illegal to sell any 50 year gun as a C&R without production documentation specific to that gun. I know that is not the case.

Time to call the ATF.

the production dates are known for most guns, usually its found out through research by gun historians etc, often published in books or online articles and such.

these used to sell as non C&R and not too long ago, they went C&R, so someone at the ATF must have given the green light based on some info.

i do know there's a serial number survey out there thats trying to compile production data based on serials and crests.

what is the letter prefix to the serial number on the frame of yours, if any?

BlueHeeler · Jul 27, 2010

Chaunsey said:
the production dates are known for most guns, usually its found out through research by gun historians etc, often published in books or online articles and such.

these used to sell as non C&R and not too long ago, they went C&R, so someone at the ATF must have given the green light based on some info.

i do know there's a serial number survey out there thats trying to compile production data based on serials and crests.

what is the letter prefix to the serial number on the frame of yours, if any?

TBH I do not know the serial number. The pistol has all sorts of stamps and numbers on every part that look like they were added after manufacture. Do you know if any of these are serial numbers?

If I had to guess this is the serial number???

There are also a few other stamps like a well traveled suitcase.

I am 100% sure DC will not accept an online database or even serial deciphering as proof. The officer clearly said, 'It is not on the list, cannot be registered' which is in defiance to the first page of the ATF list (and the law) that says this list is not all inclusive.

To be fair, I expect they rarely if ever deal with C&R guns.

I emailed ATF explaining the situation for clarification. I cannot wait for a reply.

What I do not understand is hypothetically if my gun was produced in 1962, how can every online, gun show, gun store, anyone in the US sell it as a C&R?

JAGGUY · Jul 27, 2010

This might help
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?103742-Yugo-M57-Tokarev-Survey

Mine has an I prefix and was told it's a 1966

Also, federally, a C&R firearm doesn't need to 50 years old, just needs to be designated as C&R by the BATF&E.

BlueHeeler · Jul 28, 2010

JAGGUY said:
This might help
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?103742-Yugo-M57-Tokarev-Survey

Mine has an I prefix and was told it's a 1966

Also, federally, a C&R firearm doesn't need to 50 years old, just needs to be designated as C&R by the BATF&E.

Thanks, that helps a lot for my personal knowledge. To be designated by BATF&E outside of age it needs to be on the list which M57 is not.

Abiding by the law is a real PITA. I am glad that criminals will not commit crimes because they decipher their serial number and know it would be illegal to register the gun and then engage in nefarious activities because the gun is not old enough. :rolleyes:

Chaunsey · Jul 28, 2010

the first picture is the serial number.

if you didnt know the serial number, i have to ask, did you record the pistol in a boundbook yet?

regardless of whether you can or cant register it in DC, you must still follow the federal law and keep a bound book record of all your purchases.

yours has an "I" prefix, which i think means 1965.

however, my guess is and this is purely a guess on my part that the ATF made a determination that because these are model of 1957 pistols, and have no date on them, that people cannot be expected to know which are or arent C&R and therefore they can all be sold as C&R due to the model designation.

again, dont take that as truth, just a guess.

maybe if you go back another time when someone else who is more sensible is on duty possibly and you take a copy of the ATF C&R regs and you point out the model of 1957 designation they may take it.

BlueHeeler · Jul 28, 2010

Chaunsey said:
the first picture is the serial number.

if you didnt know the serial number, i have to ask, did you record the pistol in a boundbook yet?

regardless of whether you can or cant register it in DC, you must still follow the federal law and keep a bound book record of all your purchases.

yours has an "I" prefix, which i think means 1965.

however, my guess is and this is purely a guess on my part that the ATF made a determination that because these are model of 1957 pistols, and have no date on them, that people cannot be expected to know which are or arent C&R and therefore they can all be sold as C&R due to the model designation.

again, dont take that as truth, just a guess.

maybe if you go back another time when someone else who is more sensible is on duty possibly and you take a copy of the ATF C&R regs and you point out the model of 1957 designation they may take it.

I just got my ATF info book yesterday, so I am still reading up on my bound book requirements.

I think there is only one guy that works at the registration office doing the actual registration. There will be no tricks with him.

Darth Fabulous · Jul 28, 2010

I called the MPD after I got my C&R and asked about the registration process. At first the officer said there is none for C&rs. THen he backtracked, and said I would need a DC delaers license. When I told him I'm not dealing, just collecting, he sounded really confused and hot his Superior. Basically, MPD does not know what the foxtrot it's doing. I would actually love to see their stats to see how many crimes have been commited with Tokarev pistols. Although maybe if you;re regsitration is rejected, it could be grounds for a suit to overturn this BS scheme in the first place. If police in charge of firearms registration do not even know the friggin rules, how can they be trusted to enforce this scheme?

Chaunsey · Jul 29, 2010

BlueHeeler said:
I just got my ATF info book yesterday, so I am still reading up on my bound book requirements.

I think there is only one guy that works at the registration office doing the actual registration. There will be no tricks with him.

well legally you're supposed to record the purchase the day you receive it, so i would definitely do it right away especially since you're dealing with government agencies about the gun.

its very simple.

download and print a couple of these and put them in a binder or something, or if you prefer some companies sell boundbooks, but this page is what i use, i just have them in plastic sleeves in a binder along with all the receipts for every gun ive bought.

keeping good records of your collection even if you arent a collector is very important for all gun owners imo.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

K31 · Jul 29, 2010

Chaunsey said:
download and print a couple of these and put them in a binder or something, or if you prefer some companies sell boundbooks, but this page is what i use, i just have them in plastic sleeves in a binder along with all the receipts for every gun ive bought.

keeping good records of your collection even if you arent a collector is very important for all gun owners imo.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

In another thread it was stated that the BATF wanted the bound book entries in a strictly columnar format which these don't seem to be.

BlueHeeler · Jul 29, 2010

Chaunsey said:
well legally you're supposed to record the purchase the day you receive it, so i would definitely do it right away especially since you're dealing with government agencies about the gun.

its very simple.

download and print a couple of these and put them in a binder or something, or if you prefer some companies sell boundbooks, but this page is what i use, i just have them in plastic sleeves in a binder along with all the receipts for every gun ive bought.

keeping good records of your collection even if you arent a collector is very important for all gun owners imo.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

Thanks for the link :thumbsup:

, I might change my sheet based on that version. I put my boundbook together last night, I should be Federally legal. Locally, still fighting that fight.

Chaunsey · Jul 29, 2010

K31 said:
In another thread it was stated that the BATF wanted the bound book entries in a strictly columnar format which these don't seem to be.

I've never heard that, a whole lot of people are using that page and have been for years, even people who have been inspected by the atf.

i don't think the law requires a very specific format, just that you properly record all the required info.

Jim Keenan · Jul 29, 2010

Ignorance of the law is all too common with police officers. They know a few laws, like the vehicle code, and common crimes, but beyond that they have no clue. Further, I have heard that the DC police have been told to refuse registration as much as possible; I have also heard that a nice size bribe will change that, but don't try it - you might encounter the one honest cop in the city.

It would be expensive, but you might consider hiring an attorney to write the police a letter or even go with you when you try to register the gun. But you better make sure he knows the law (the NRA has a list), as many attorneys are just as clueless as the cops when it comes to gun laws.

Jim

j8064 · Jul 29, 2010

K31 said:
In another thread it was stated that the BATF wanted the bound book entries in a strictly columnar format which these don't seem to be.

Chaunsey said:
I've never heard that, a whole lot of people are using that page and have been for years, even people who have been inspected by the atf.

i don't think the law requires a very specific format, just that you properly record all the required info.

Here's the thread K31 mentions. Depending on how many pages you may have to rewrite in front of an auditor it may or may not be worth using the columnar format as the BATFE says. For me, rewriting one page would be one too many. Read Bigdtc's post (#63).

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7978&highlight=atf+audit&page=4

BlueHeeler · Jul 29, 2010

Jim Keenan said:
Ignorance of the law is all too common with police officers. They know a few laws, like the vehicle code, and common crimes, but beyond that they have no clue. Further, I have heard that the DC police have been told to refuse registration as much as possible; I have also heard that a nice size bribe will change that, but don't try it - you might encounter the one honest cop in the city.

It would be expensive, but you might consider hiring an attorney to write the police a letter or even go with you when you try to register the gun. But you better make sure he knows the law (the NRA has a list), as many attorneys are just as clueless as the cops when it comes to gun laws.

Jim

Ignorance of the law is almost understandable in this case. DC does not have a lot of C&R registration and the whole registration process is newish. I somewhat know the main registration officer, he has registered most of my guns. He is by the book so talk of bribes is fiction.

I am more annoyed with ATF. They wrote a subjective list of C&R guns and leave the citizens with the burden of proof a gun is more than 50 years old because they do not feel like making an inclusive list. I have emailed ATF twice this week to clarify because email is their preferred means of contact. No reply. :mad54:

AFAIK, if you are a .gov and do not reply with in 24 hours, your butt meets a lawnmower.

The Yugo is in MD hiding at the moment until I hear from ATF. I really do not want a illegal gun in the house.

With some luck I will be trying to register another C&R pistol that is on the list tomorrow. Details to follow.

Registration Problem

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