What an appeal to the HPRB looks like

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  • Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,532
    As nice as the legal argument was by MSI President, the discussion after made no mention it was a determining factor. The atty on HPRB even stated, "Each case stands on it's own merits". More like the Napoleonic code. That tells me that case law isn't anything to rely on at HPRB. Flame away..
     

    songlaw

    Active Member
    Aug 2, 2017
    240
    Clarksville
    "While Conducting Business"

    Congrats on getting the restriction lifted from this particular permit holder!

    I have a CCW permit, and have the restriction on my permit, as well. I wrote MSP for a clarification as to what that meant, as I did not want to unknowingly violate the restriction. I got my permit at the end of January 2017, and wrote MSP, prior to the deadline to do so,for a clarification, or, in the alternative, a hearing. I received no response. A couple of months later, I wrote again. Again, no response. I am about to do so again.

    I am a solo practice attorney, and "conduct business" 24/7. I have my office phones forwarded to my cell when I leave the office. I often receive phone calls while at dinner, and sometimes, at 2:00 a.m. I go meet clients after-hours. I advertise evenings and weekends. As such, sometimes I meet a client at 9:00 on Tuesday, or 4 p.m. on a Sunday, outside most others' work hours.

    It seems to me that, should I get arrested because law enforcement believes that I am acting outside the scope of "conducting business," because of the vagueness of the restriction, I would eventually prevail in court. However, obviously, the goal is to avoid being arrested in the first place.

    Has there been any clarification by MSP or any other LEA as to what "conducting business" means?

    I appreciate any response.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    As far as I am aware, MSP has not acted to clarify definitions which are central to the exercise of the rights "granted" to the permit holder. Neither have they ever provided a definition of such a concept so basic to their mission as "good and substantial".

    Like the restrictions placed on the written word in the middle of the last century regarding "pornography", apparently the MSP can't define it, but they "know it when they see it". Most of the MSP determinations are arbitrary, capricious, and dependent on the mood and attitude of the investigating officer in the LD.

    It's challenging to not run afoul of a law that has no generally accepted meaning. It can also be expensive, and life-changing, usually for the worse.

    The cynic in me suspects that this situation is intentional, part and parcel of the General Assembly's stance regarding the civil rights of citizens of this Free State. The internal culture of the MSP is also inclined to support their position of issuing the smallest number of permits possible, a classic bureaucratic response: if no permits are issued, no one in the organisation will suffer any consequences from having issued a permit.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Congrats on getting the restriction lifted from this particular permit holder!

    I have a CCW permit, and have the restriction on my permit, as well. I wrote MSP for a clarification as to what that meant, as I did not want to unknowingly violate the restriction. I got my permit at the end of January 2017, and wrote MSP, prior to the deadline to do so,for a clarification, or, in the alternative, a hearing. I received no response. A couple of months later, I wrote again. Again, no response. I am about to do so again.

    I am a solo practice attorney, and "conduct business" 24/7. I have my office phones forwarded to my cell when I leave the office. I often receive phone calls while at dinner, and sometimes, at 2:00 a.m. I go meet clients after-hours. I advertise evenings and weekends. As such, sometimes I meet a client at 9:00 on Tuesday, or 4 p.m. on a Sunday, outside most others' work hours.

    It seems to me that, should I get arrested because law enforcement believes that I am acting outside the scope of "conducting business," because of the vagueness of the restriction, I would eventually prevail in court. However, obviously, the goal is to avoid being arrested in the first place.

    Has there been any clarification by MSP or any other LEA as to what "conducting business" means?

    I appreciate any response.

    I think you have a shot. Others have had their restrictions lifted for situations like yours. I'll let others more knowing advise you on the process. And bear in mind, as always, YMMV.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    Handgun permit holders commit less crime than police officers.
    Permit holders are just looking for a fair, objective permit approval process and a clear understanding of what the laws are they need to abide by.
     
    Last edited:

    montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    For your viewing pleasure:




    Be sure to subscribe to the MSI YouTube page for more
    https://www.youtube.com/c/marylandshallissue


    DISCLAIMER: This is by no means a dig at Mr. Pennack. He is brilliant and hold more knowledge in his pinkie than I will ever achieve.

    Something struck me. The board allowed the "expert witness" to speak and testify, but when I myself was asked by an applicant to accompany him into closed session, because the SP was afraid of their secret recipe being broadcast to the world, I was told I could not speak in support of the applicant.


    things-that-make-you-go-hmm.jpg
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,532
    DISCLAIMER: This is by no means a dig at Mr. Pennack. He is brilliant and hold more knowledge in his pinkie than I will ever achieve.

    Something struck me. The board allowed the "expert witness" to speak and testify, but when I myself was asked by an applicant to accompany him into closed session, because the SP was afraid of their secret recipe being broadcast to the world, I was told I could not speak in support of the applicant.


    things-that-make-you-go-hmm.jpg

    You are not a lawyer, can't practice or argue law. Legum spelled out what a witness really is. I've seen expert witnesses, but all went through 30+ minutes of challenge before qualified as an expert if they had no previous admission as an expert on "x" to cite. Boards like this are fast and loose to say the least. Going pro se , then representing an attorney as an expert witness is interesting. Note Hollman, "I'll consider it for whatever it is worth". That was no endorsement as accepting the testimony as expert. Hollman also was shrewd during discussion before ruling not to mention any of Pennak's argument as a factor in his decision.
     

    44man

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    10,129
    southern md
    I enjoyed the video immensely and I am glad the board sided with the permit holder.

    I still question how this helps the $15 hour ditch digger in md to get an unrestricted permit using self defense as g and s. the msp ld scheme is still for those with enough clout, money and time to get a permit.
     

    cool_t_1

    Member
    Sep 14, 2016
    56
    AA County MD
    I enjoyed the video immensely and I am glad the board sided with the permit holder.

    I still question how this helps the $15 hour ditch digger in md to get an unrestricted permit using self defense as g and s. the msp ld scheme is still for those with enough clout, money and time to get a permit.

    I thought the same thing. I believe that any successful overturning is a move in the right direction. As the ball keeps rolling these victories will pave the way for those who do not have the clout. Once enough unrestricted permits are out there hopefully those people start pushing for the ones who do not have one. Have to start somewhere.
     

    44man

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    10,129
    southern md
    I thought the same thing. I believe that any successful overturning is a move in the right direction. As the ball keeps rolling these victories will pave the way for those who do not have the clout. Once enough unrestricted permits are out there hopefully those people start pushing for the ones who do not have one. Have to start somewhere.

    don't get me wrong, I am glad a few permits and a few of them as unrestricted are getting thru and I am grateful at those who are fighting the fight that way. but the few dozen that get permits while Hogan is governor wont make a hill of beans as soon as we get stuck with a dem a couple years from now and those permits will likely not get renewed. I find that a shame but I can se it happening. if the board was just issuing unrestricted permits as fast as they are hearing cases it still couldn't issue more than 400 until a dem gets in and puts a stop to it and that wont be enough to turn things around (8 cases twice a month for two years + or -). my math may be off some but even if it were a year off 600 permits wouldn't do it.

    I just believe Hogan should tell pallozi to accept self defense as g and s and let frosh sue and then let the mga explain to all Marylanders why they don't want us defending ourselves.

    but alas this is but a pipe dream.

    but I will still do what I can my way and I am grateful to those doing it their way, its just agonizing to see so little happening.
     

    Gambler

    ¿Got Freedom?
    Oct 30, 2011
    3,476
    Parkville
    As nice as the legal argument was by MSI President, the discussion after made no mention it was a determining factor. The atty on HPRB even stated, "Each case stands on it's own merits". More like the Napoleonic code. That tells me that case law isn't anything to rely on at HPRB. Flame away..

    According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.
    Before this board, yes. At a different time in the future with a different governor I can see many unrestricted renewals either failing or having restrictions applied. I doubt a dem governor would try to stop issuance of all handgun permits but I can totally see the restrictions coming back with full force and the existence of a HPRB board made up of folks like we had under O' Malley.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,532
    According to the MSP and the AG each case stands on its own. They certainly treat it as such. While that may be the case, for now at least, the argument against restrictions (the Pennak letter) has been working quite well.

    Show me a decision citing that as basis. If that is anywhere in the record as a determining factor, how could the HPRB not consider this their own case law, applicable to every appellant pointing to a previous overturn on that basis. If you find that basis quoted in a decison, please post it so others can waltz in without spinning the prize wheel by repeating previous testimony and see if it sticks for them. It's a kangaroo court that is still with us due to the late entrance of a Bill last session to kill it. The board has the power to overturn MSP w/o people making the trek to Crownsville. Why have they surrendered that?
     

    Gambler

    ¿Got Freedom?
    Oct 30, 2011
    3,476
    Parkville
    Show me a decision citing that as basis. If that is anywhere in the record as a determining factor, how could the HPRB not consider this their own case law, applicable to every appellant pointing to a previous overturn on that basis. If you find that basis quoted in a decison, please post it so others can waltz in without spinning the prize wheel by repeating previous testimony and see if it sticks for them. It's a kangaroo court that is still with us due to the late entrance of a Bill last session to kill it. The board has the power to overturn MSP w/o people making the trek to Crownsville. Why have they surrendered that?

    The board doesn't use past decisions like "case law". I don't know enough about the intricacies of the law to know if that is legitimate or not. Currently, each applicant has to make their own argument. Lately, if they do it correctly, the board has been favorable in removing needless restrictions. If I ever get my letter back from the AG who's sitting on it, then I'll share it with you.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    The board doesn't use past decisions like "case law". I don't know enough about the intricacies of the law to know if that is legitimate or not. Currently, each applicant has to make their own argument. Lately, if they do it correctly, the board has been favorable in removing needless restrictions. If I ever get my letter back from the AG who's sitting on it, then I'll share it with you.


    Neither are the Maryland State Police influenced by past decisions of the Board in deciding if applications meet their G&S scheme.

    It's like the movie Groundhog Day with MSP pointlessly denying or restricting handgun permits... and applicants making the same successful arguments over and over again - each time, as if it were a new argument.

    A terrible waste of limited Police and government resources, solely for political purposes, against a group who statistically commits fewer crimes than police officers.

    Gov. Hogan promised to put the state on a new path and change Maryland for the better.

    I look forward to the Gov. and Col. Pallozzi fixing this circus.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    44man

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    10,129
    southern md
    Neither are the Maryland State Police influenced by past decisions of the Board in deciding if applications meet their G&S scheme.

    It's like the movie Groundhog Day with MSP pointlessly denying or restricting handgun permits... and applicants making the same successful arguments over and over again - each time, as if it were a new argument.

    A terrible waste of limited Police and government resources, solely for political purposes, against a group who statistically commits fewer crimes than police officers.

    Gov. Hogan promised to put the state on a new path and change Maryland for the better.

    I look forward to the Gov. and Col. Pallozzi fixing this circus.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    do you truly have faith that his will happen before Hogan looses re election?
     

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