80 Percent AR Registration?

lazarus · Dec 10, 2017

The state has apparently gone after a few people under FSA 2013 for things like non-HBAR AR-15s that don’t predate the ban. In a lot of cases it is open and shut. Too young to have owned a non-HBAR AR-15 preban? Well obviously you acquired it illegally.

Remember, it was a regulated firearm before, so you would have had to of been 21 before October 2013. So if you are 25 or under now and have a non-HBAR AR-15, according to MD, you got some ‘splaining to do.

If a prosecutor/police were curious about the provenance if you’d firearm, it is a real quick call to the manufacturer to determine the build date, then they can call the FFL that sold it initially and on down the chain till they get to you or a dead end. Anything along the way was post ocypher 2013 on the way and you are in possession of a banned firearm.

For an 80%, well within certain limits you can figure out somewhat who might have made the initial 80% before you machined it. If they weren’t making 80% or not that type before October 2013...

The effort probably gets to a point where cops or the DA just aren’t going to bother doing the forensics unless they are REAL determined to put you away for something. Do some other crime and get caught for it and you can probably be pretty sure they’ll end up being real determined to stack more charges on you.

Also as much as the law sucks, don’t make it easy on them by being a young whipper snap who could have never owned one legally, and now have on in your possession. Doesn’t take much arithmetic for a cop to put two and two together.

BradMacc82 · Dec 10, 2017

teratos said:
Innocent until proven guilty. All you would have is your word.

outrider58 said:
Isn't that unconstitutional?

FSA2013? Yep. Oh, you meant shifting the burden of proof on to the defendant in regards to banned firearms?

I couldn't say if it's legally legit, most civil cases the burden of proof is on the defendant, most criminal cases the burden of proof is on the prosecution/state.

And I may be wrong, actually I'm hoping I am in this case - but for some reason I want to say there was language in FSA2013 that put the burden of proof on the defendant if they were charged with illegally possessing a banned firearm.

**If one of our resident legal eagles wants to chime in and confirm, or correct me, please feel free to.

whistlersmother · Dec 10, 2017

No one knows when you may have completed an 80% lower. While credit cards could indicate that someone bought an 80%, there's no proof that the one in question was purchased with cash and finished before or after Oct 2013.

So that leaves your own honesty and will to be law abiding. And while I believe stupid infringements need to be challenged, is an HBAR vs non-HBAR worth the legal issues at this time?

As noted above, why make it easy for the state?

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outrider58 · Dec 10, 2017

whistlersmother said:
No one knows when you may have completed an 80% lower. While credit cards could indicate that someone bought an 80%, there's no proof that the one in question was purchased with cash and finished before or after Oct 2013.

So that leaves your own honesty and will to be law abiding. And while I believe stupid infringements need to be challenged, is an HBAR vs non-HBAR worth the legal issues at this time?

As noted above, why make it easy for the state?

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My response has always been no. As soon as you throw a 40 rnd mag where a 30 was before, you've negated the difference between a heavy barrel and a standard contour bbl. I understand the folks who compete with their guns, but in Md, all have the same problem. It's all relative to me. :shrug:

BananaRunt · Dec 10, 2017

hit3961 said:
How does one prove or disprove it was purchased before 2013?

In the scenario I had in mind it wouldn’t matter if it was purchased after 2013. The AR would either be an HBAR or handgun.

BananaRunt · Dec 10, 2017

whistlersmother said:
What teratos said.

Note, for other states, there may be registration requirements. Hawaii, for example, would require registration of the handgun at the state level. I think there is a brief window to do so after manufacture has been completed.

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From what I read on MSP, it seems there IS registration at the state level in Maryland. Hence new residents registering handguns when they move to MD.

hit3961 · Dec 10, 2017

BananaRunt said:
In the scenario I had in mind it wouldn’t matter if it was purchased after 2013. The AR would either be an HBAR or handgun.

Cool , have fun

lazarus · Dec 10, 2017

BananaRunt said:
From what I read on MSP, it seems there IS registration at the state level in Maryland. Hence new residents registering handguns when they move to MD.

Correct. Only for handguns and only when you establish residency. If a lower is completed as a handgun after residency has been established, no registration.

whistlersmother · Dec 10, 2017

BananaRunt said:
From what I read on MSP, it seems there IS registration at the state level in Maryland. Hence new residents registering handguns when they move to MD.

yes, that's true. My original post did note that moving to Maryland is even more complicated. If you intend to become a Maryland resident, you must register the handgun regardless if you bought it, manufactured it yourself, or it fell out of the sky.

But! As a Maryland resident already here, there is no requirement to register when you manufacture the handgun.

At least Hawaii requires registration, even if you make it and are already a Hawaiian resident. So, hey!, at least MD is slightly better than HI.

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snake-eye · Dec 10, 2017

Question. If it's a 80% receiver it has no serial number. If it is finished into a rifle or handgun, how would it be registered if you wanted to do so.

BananaRunt · Dec 10, 2017

whistlersmother said:
yes, that's true. My original post did note that moving to Maryland is even more complicated. If you intend to become a Maryland resident, you must register the handgun regardless if you bought it, manufactured it yourself, or it fell out of the sky.

But! As a Maryland resident already here, there is no requirement to register when you manufacture the handgun.

At least Hawaii requires registration, even if you make it and are already a Hawaiian resident. So, hey!, at least MD is slightly better than HI.

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Wow, ok very complicated indeed. But it looks like, at least in my scenario, I’m good to go. Thanks again!

Threeband · Dec 10, 2017

snake-eye said:
Question. If it's a 80% receiver it has no serial number. If it is finished into a rifle or handgun, how would it be registered if you wanted to do so.

If you wanted to register it for some crazy reason, I suppose it would help to put a serial number on it. Otherwise it only needs a serial number if you transfer ownership to another person.

It might be fun to try registering one without a number, just writing "none" or "N/A" on that line of the form.

whistlersmother · Dec 10, 2017

Threeband said:
If you wanted to register it for some crazy reason, I suppose it would help to put a serial number on it. Otherwise it only needs a serial number if you transfer ownership to another person.

It might be fun to try registering one without a number, just writing "none" or "N/A" on that line of the form.

I'm not so sure it needs a serial number for transfer later...

See: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

I personally would add one if I were to sell mine at a later date.

IANAL, YMMV, AYOR, etc.

BananaRunt · Dec 10, 2017

snake-eye said:
Question. If it's a 80% receiver it has no serial number. If it is finished into a rifle or handgun, how would it be registered if you wanted to do so.

I’m debating voluntarily registering it, so I’ll just put my own serial number, manufacturer (me), and caliber (multi) per ATF

My rational is, if regulations become more stringent, I will have a pre-ban and hopefully a grandfathered firearm, evidenced by the registration date. I don’t want to be stuck with a firearm I have no way of proving I owned prior to any future regulations being implemented.

I recall reading about issues with folks who had these unserialized auto-sears back before all the NFA regs were implemented. After NFA, people just claimed they were pre-ban, and I think folks were still manufacturing them and claiming them as pre-ban. There was no way to prove when they were manufactured, so ATF placed them into some sort of pergatory where you could own them but couldn’t use them or even have them in the vicinity of a firearm that could use it.

I just want avoid something similar happening.

Oh, and in case you’re wondering why I would go the 80% route if I’m just going to register it anyway, I just want the experience of building a firearm from that stage.

Threeband · Dec 10, 2017

BananaRunt said:
I’m debating voluntarily registering it

...
I just want avoid something similar happening.

I think that's reasonable and makes sense.

Register one or two, and bury the rest in your neighbor's back yard.

"So I was out back around oh-dark-thirty the other night, burying a couple of lowers under my neighbor's shed, and I caught him burying two Glocks and an AK under my shed."

Pinecone · Dec 11, 2017

lazarus said:
Correct. Only for handguns and only when you establish residency. If a lower is completed as a handgun after residency has been established, no registration.

Not only handguns, all regulated firearms.

So currently banned, but gradnfathered due to purchase date, long guns have to be registered also.

Pinecone · Dec 11, 2017

Threeband said:
It might be fun to try registering one without a number, just writing "none" or "N/A" on that line of the form.

As in the Handgun section thread, I think that maybe heads would explode.

Pinecone · Dec 11, 2017

BananaRunt said:
I’m debating voluntarily registering it, so I’ll just put my own serial number, manufacturer (me), and caliber (multi) per ATF

My rational is, if regulations become more stringent, I will have a pre-ban and hopefully a grandfathered firearm, evidenced by the registration date. I don’t want to be stuck with a firearm I have no way of proving I owned prior to any future regulations being implemented.

I recall reading about issues with folks who had these unserialized auto-sears back before all the NFA regs were implemented. After NFA, people just claimed they were pre-ban, and I think folks were still manufacturing them and claiming them as pre-ban. There was no way to prove when they were manufactured, so ATF placed them into some sort of pergatory where you could own them but couldn’t use them or even have them in the vicinity of a firearm that could use it.

I just want avoid something similar happening.

Oh, and in case you’re wondering why I would go the 80% route if I’m just going to register it anyway, I just want the experience of building a firearm from that stage.

If the laws change, register before it goes into affect.

WHY would you want to tell MD that you have it?

hit3961 · Dec 11, 2017

whistlersmother said:
I'm not so sure it needs a serial number for transfer later...

See: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/...-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

I personally would add one if I were to sell mine at a later date.

IANAL, YMMV, AYOR, etc.

You Can't sell or transfer it !! It you do you need a ffl manufacturer license .

whistlersmother · Dec 11, 2017

hit3961 said:
You Can't sell or transfer it !! It you do you need a ffl manufacturer license .

You can't make it with that intent. If your intent is to make for transfer, then you need FFL.

Read the ATF guidance - if you make for personal use, then decide later to transfer, you don't need FFL.

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