AAR: Green Ops Defensive Carbine Clinic I

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Last night, I was privileged yet again to train with Green Ops, this time at their defensive carbine clinic at the NRA range. This was in the 6-10:30PM format, albeit we really went to more like 11PM this time around.

    Since I like giving some context to where I'm coming from: I've previously taken a carbine class, so unlike my other Green Ops adventures, I wasn't starting from absolute scratch on this one. I would say I have a fair amount of range-based trigger time behind all sorts of carbines as well. So let's put that somewhere ahead of "rank beginner" and rather a lot behind "expert".

    Instructors were Brett and Andy. That was a little surprising - they usually run three, but I guess the rest of them were busy/deployed. The two NRA range officers, however, also knew their shit and were happy to give advice as required.

    Gear-wise, I was running a stock Tavor with Mepro RDS, Magpul mags of varying sorts, and a Blackhawk Omega Cross-Draw vest (no pistol). Sling was a plain-jane Blue Force Gear Vickers sling. I'm not going to claim this was a particularly great setup, and I could write a whole post on just trying to run-and-gun with a Tavor (answer: possible, but not as easy). Still, it's what I had and it worked alright for my purposes.

    The rest of the class was rocking ARs, sans one other guy with a Tavor. Lots of PA and Holosun optics. No failures that I was aware of - I guess those Chinese optics are getting to "mostly reliable" now, which is nice. The only equipment failure I saw in the class was the other Tavor guy launching his ASR-mount suppressor down range during zero'ing. Not sure what happened there, but given how rough Tavors are with suppressors, that might not have been the worst thing anyways.

    Most of the shooting was at the 10-25yd mark. I would say that if I have any single critique of the class, this was probably it. There was a lot of aiming at small targets, and, yeah, I could probably tag stuff at 50-100 if needed, but I kinda feel like if you're going with a carbine, you should at least be practicing 50yd shots in a class. To be fair, this was also brought on by the choice of venue, but the class could have been tweaked to deal more effectively with this. Always room for improvement, I suppose

    We went through like 150-200rds of ammo, probably on the lesser side of that. We had two relays of people.

    First thing we did was sit in a classroom and go over some "how to shoot a rifle" basics. No surprises there. They are a little more aggressive using the safety than I prefer, but I think the NRA range officers were driving that a bit (like, in real life... unless I'm actually going to move, I'm not bother with the safety).

    There was then a justifiable-use-of-force presentation. This was well-done, but felt slightly odd in a carbine class (vs a handgun/shotgun) class. If I've made the choice to use a carbine/MSR to defend myself, chances are pretty damn good that this is the most dire situation imaginable. I guess I would have preferred we either skipped this or shortened it quite a bit in favor of more range time. Other people seemed to find it more of a revelation, so maybe I'm just jaded and/or suffer from BGOS.

    Anyways, off to the range! First task was the standard "go prone at 25yds and test your zero so we can make sure you're shooting straight". No problem; my Tavor was zeroed at 50 and I had no issues tagging the target where I needed. Other people were not quite as on point, which I can sympathize with, but no one was so off that they needed to rezero. There was a quick discussion of why 25yd zeros suck for 5.56. (They're not wrong, which is why all of mine at 36 or 50.)

    This would be the first and last time we went prone in the class. I think you've got to skip something in these shorter format classes, and prone wasn't the worst thing to skip.

    The next couple drills were one then two shots of "10yds, shoot the square, lol height over bore". I understand HoB just fine, so after a couple shots to figure that out on my Tavor, I did just fine. I thought it was an interesting place to start the drills from, but it did seem to flow from the zero'ing exercise, and it's a pretty vital thing to know about.

    Next drill was reloading: start with one in the chamber and an empty mag, fire one, reload, and then fire a second time. Reloading on a Tavor is just not as fast as an AR, but I didn't feel super-slow about it. If anything, I think I would have critiqued my vest as the major factor slowing my reloads (my mags were all primary side, which isn't all that great if you're using your support hand). Only way to learn about your gear is to use it hard!

    I'm a little fuzzy about this, but I think the next two drills were or some variation of kneeling-and-then-standing. I don't shoot kneeling a lot, but I was wearing knee pads, so this was pretty easy for me since I could just drop without having to slow my "fall".

    After that, it was time for barricade shooting. We practiced standing and kneeling on both right and left sides of the barrier. Green Ops teaches you to use your off-shoulder but NOT off-hands when going weak-side on a barricade, and you just choke up near the mag-well with your support hand. This is really unnatural, but to their credit, people were all making it work pretty well by the time we were done. I think it's something you should want to practice, to say the least.

    And, yes, I did that with my Tavor, and, no, I did not eat any brass, thank G-d for that case deflector. My backup gun was an AUG A3 NATO with a TA01NSN, and I am not sure I would have wanted to try that drill with it.

    Final exam was an el-presidente variant with three targets - shoot each of them twice, reload, shoot them again twice each. My time on this was not particularly notable, but I also didn't expect to break any records on the Tavor. One or two people in the class did it in sub-10, which is pretty good.

    I feel like I have been overly critical in a couple places, so let me conclude with the fact that I greatly enjoyed the class, and look forward to taking it again. I suspect the proper carbine class that's eight hours long covers some of the material we missed (and if they ever do it on a Sunday, I'd go). I learned some new stuff, though, and that's about all I can ask for. :)
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    So, vis a vis running the Tavor hard...

    The only big issue with the platform is reloading, and I'd argue that the problem is not really getting the old magazine out but rather getting the bolt back into battery. The bolt release is just in a really awkward place, so you either wind up hitting it (which is slow and awkward) or racking the CH (which is slow but less awkward). The X95 seems to have a better design on this front, but it's still not that hot due to the bolt release being roughly the same (albeit moderately improved).

    The factory trigger is also not great for first-round hits due to how heavy it is, but has a really great reset. If I wanted to spend the money on a Geissele pack, this would be a non-issue IMHO. As it is, you've got to be a touch slower and more deliberate to make the trigger do what you need it to do. But important thing here: it _can_ do the job.

    Switching shoulders, as I alluded to above, was not a problem due to the case deflector. Yeah, brass flying in front of your face is a theoretically bit unsettling, but if it doesn't hit you, who cares? I was so totally focused on the drill I barely even noticed. This is one place where the Tavor is just way better than the AUG, IMHO.

    Finally, I did not love the sling situation on it. I prefer running the Magpul single point slings when I need to shoot dynamically, and the Tavor is not set up for that out of the box. The GHW Flex Swivel apparently does a reasonable job of providing a way to do this, but they were out of stock everywhere when I was looking for it in May.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Thanks for writing this up. I'll be doing Carbine II with Green Ops this fall.

    They do the use of force thing in every class. While some might deem it worthy of cutting out in these abbreviated classes, I guess it says something about the priorities for Green Ops that they always include it.

    Also, keep in mind this is like a 4-5 hour clinic, and as I understand it is basically geared to the true newbie to training or to the platform in question (carbine in this case). In Carbine I we shot out to 100 yds, but of course that was outdoors.

    Next year I'll probably try some of their handgun classes just to see what they're like, and maybe even their scoped rifle and/or shotgun class. Mike said after Carbine I that me and one or two other guys were far enough along to do a true advanced class, so I'll keep enough eye out for such opportunities.

    Green Ops is the real deal and not far for many Marylanders to get to with ease.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Yeah, I can never make it to the real-deal classes because they always do them on Saturday, which is a no-go for me. I wonder if they've got enough of a base now that they'd consider running some additional classes on Sundays.
     

    AlBeight

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 30, 2017
    4,380
    Hampstead
    Erwos, thanks for the great write-up, sounds like you had fun. If you like your Tavor, in May I took the Tavor Level I class that IWI offers on their website. 2 days, Sat & Sun, taught by IWI certified instructors. I took the class in Lewisberry PA, just off 83, only 10 min north of York, PA. Our lead instructer was a guy named Yossi, a former Israeli IDF Special Forces Counter Terrorism commando. That dude was awesome. He is also one of the principal guys at Masada Tactical in Pikesville.

    I had only put static, bench-seated, one round every 2 seconds shots thru my BRS18 until that course. Contrary to what you said I found the Tavor standard trigger to be lightning quick, maybe because I was the only guy in a class of 8 with the MD version with muzzle-break which helped my gun barely move during rapid firing, returning dead-on target every time. I fired as fast as I humanly could on several drills and rarely was outside the “A” zone, on then only a “B” (at least as far as I’ll tell :innocent0). This allowed me to rock & roll way faster and accurately than I thought possible. My shooting was fairly good at times. My reloads though, ugh, when slow & deliberate were spot on, but......when reloading at speed, much like you said I really struggled with loading the new mag. I had trouble fumbling with the new mag, and for some reason tactical reloads killed me. I learned that my left hand dexterity sux. I must’ve been lucky because I was one of the few folks that didn’t have the problem of slide release on reloads like you did, just the rest of it killed me.

    We went thru just over 800 rounds in the 2 days. As far as the thumb safety issue you mention, that’s how we were taught. Safety on until target acquisition, fire, safety back on, gun down to low ready. The top side of my right thumb had a sweet callus by Sunday night. Unfortunately we didn’t do any barrier shoots thst you mentioned, that would be interesting to try with that rifle.

    I highly recommend this course. This is ALL Tavor, both Tavor & X95. They even have guns you can use if you don’t have one (tell them when you sign up).

    Where is Green Ops? I’d like to look into that class. Where is Green Ops? I wanna see how some of my AR’s run in those conditions.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Erwos, thanks for the great write-up, sounds like you had fun. If you like your Tavor, in May I took the Tavor Level I class that IWI offers on their website. 2 days, Sat & Sun, taught by IWI certified instructors. I took the class in Lewisberry PA, just off 83, only 10 min north of York, PA. Our lead instructer was a guy named Yossi, a former Israeli IDF Special Forces Counter Terrorism commando. That dude was awesome. He is also one of the principal guys at Masada Tactical in Pikesville.

    I had only put static, bench-seated, one round every 2 seconds shots thru my BRS18 until that course. Contrary to what you said I found the Tavor standard trigger to be lightning quick, maybe because I was the only guy in a class of 8 with the MD version with muzzle-break which helped my gun barely move during rapid firing, returning dead-on target every time. I fired as fast as I humanly could on several drills and rarely was outside the “A” zone, on then only a “B” (at least as far as I’ll tell :innocent0). This allowed me to rock & roll way faster and accurately than I thought possible. My shooting was fairly good at times. My reloads though, ugh, when slow & deliberate were spot on, but......when reloading at speed, much like you said I really struggled with loading the new mag. I had trouble fumbling with the new mag, and for some reason tactical reloads killed me. I learned that my left hand dexterity sux. I must’ve been lucky because I was one of the few folks that didn’t have the problem of slide release on reloads like you did, just the rest of it killed me.

    We went thru just over 800 rounds in the 2 days. As far as the thumb safety issue you mention, that’s how we were taught. Safety on until target acquisition, fire, safety back on, gun down to low ready. The top side of my right thumb had a sweet callus by Sunday night. Unfortunately we didn’t do any barrier shoots thst you mentioned, that would be interesting to try with that rifle.

    I highly recommend this course. This is ALL Tavor, both Tavor & X95. They even have guns you can use if you don’t have one (tell them when you sign up).

    Where is Green Ops? I’d like to look into that class. Where is Green Ops? I wanna see how some of my AR’s run in those conditions.

    Aside from their clinics at NRA, most of their classes are in Culpeper, VA.
     

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