How important is brass?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    Brass: same lot numbers, same processing procedures, same length etc.
    Powder: Same lot numbers
    Primers: Same lot numbers
    Bullets: Same lot numbers
    if you want to maintain the best possible accuracy, consistency

    for brass Lapua for main accuracy, LC to keep on the game, Haven't
    used Federal in years as mentioned, loose primer pockets.

    also each rifle has it's own "sweet spot"

    forgot to add this..... change only "one variable" at a time, it will stop your head from hurting
    it's easier to chase one variable, then many, it will save you a lot of time and aggravation...
    and the old saying is walk away and come back with a "clear mind" as most problems / solutions
    are right in front of you....
    finally "don't over think the problem"


    some nfo on case weights / capacity
    http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

    lake city 01 case weights 01.jpg

    case capacities 01.jpg


    and a spreadsheet thanks to AR15 Barrels
    View attachment 223weights.xls


    -Rock
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    OP, if you're going to get serious about reloading, consider getting yourself a good chronograph.

    Why? Because you've undoubtedly heard ad nauseum the old adage that you can't effectively manage, what you can't effectively measure. So as you make different changes, what's happening? You'll find answers to those questions with a good chronograph. Think of it as a diagnostic tool.

    Say I select and load 10 LC cases at random. Then say you follow the good advice the members offered here, most all of which is relating to consistency in volume. You should generally expect to see velocities and standard deviations tighten as your best practices tighten. Just one example of a (possible) cause and effect sort of comparison. If I do "x", I can expect "y." And I can demonstrate my hypothesis.

    I'm sure you can readily see where this can go. It can go plumb loco crazy, or it can go well enough for you and your standards.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    This article about the development of the .22 Eley TenEx cartridge will help you appreciate the variables involved:
    http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_eley_101405/

    Eley engineers identified 50 primary variables–basics like bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass.

    Then they determined 200 secondary variables–things like the ambient humidity in the assembly facility, the metallurgy of the cases, human competence. Finally, they identified 700 tertiary variables–subtle things the TenEx project manager told me turned out to be the ultimate keys to getting things really up to “the TenEx level.” For example: weather conditions in the country where the propellant powder is manufactured on the day that particular lot of powder was mixed. (Yes, Eley actually adjusts the TenEx loading profile for each powder lot based on this and other equally subtle considerations. The same is true of the other end of the process; manufacturing “lots” of TenEx consist of one day’s run from a single loading machine because the weather is different each day.)

    And since you are embarking down the precision shooting road you may want to read about the lengths to which some people go in pursuit of the single hole.
    http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpe...-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    This article about the development of the .22 Eley TenEx cartridge will help you appreciate the variables involved:
    http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_eley_101405/



    And since you are embarking down the precision shooting road you may want to read about the lengths to which some people go in pursuit of the single hole.
    http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpe...-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

    Thanks for giving me more to think about, grumpy old man.
     

    Nanook

    F-notso-NG-anymore
    What is your final objective? Bench rest shooting one bullet through the hole the previous one made? XTC 800 Agg matches? Loading for rapid fire mag dumps in the general direction of a barn?

    If it's not the bench rest stuff, don't sweat it. A little dose of sacrilege here...

    I put some results up here a couple years ago somewhere re: some testing I did. In a nutshell, I took a box of issued service match ammo (Mk 262 I think) and split it between two mags. Then took a random pile of brass that was prepped all the same. A wolf primer, some Varget powder, 77gr SMK on top. Lee dies on a Loadmaster progressive. Then filled out a spreadsheet from the bottom up for each of a handfull of mags as I loaded each mag. Down to the range with my service rifle and chrony to make things go bang.

    Ten rounds of issued match ammo, each shot velocity recorded with as close to the same time between shots as I could without being super anal about it. Then random brass mags: LC96, WCC05, IMI, PPU, WIN, LC04, etc.. completely random cases with everything else the same as possible (again from the progressive press). Finally finished up with the other 10 rounds of Mk 262 match ammo.

    Results? The deviation between shots was SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER between the match ammo than the random brass I loaded. I don't recall the exact numbers but I was perplexed enough to repeat the experiment to confirm it.

    Knowing this, I made up 5 rounds of each .1 grains of powder in the manufacturer's recipe book from smallest to largest and then shot them to see what each load group looked like. Different barrels like different velocities. My objective was to develop MY load for 800 Agg XTC matches. No wind bench shooting was well under MOA - without sweating every little detail.

    If you want to shoot the bench rest stuff, go for it but there are far more funner things to do with my time. YYMV, IANAL, IANaDistinguishedShooter, etc.
     

    Scrounger

    Active Member
    Jul 16, 2018
    357
    Southern Maryland
    Some years ago, a friend and I were doing a little shooting. He was shooting his pet load out of a Remington 700 PS in 223. Other than having a witch doctor bless his load I don’t think there was anything that was missed. The cases were weighed, sorted, trimmed for length, necks turned, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes done. He would even sort the bullets by weight. He had some device, I don’t remember the name, that he used to check jacket thickness on the bullets. And don’t get me started on how he used a press. I’m sure there are some things I forget. But, one gets the idea.

    His five shot groups at 200 yards were right around ¾”. He was happy.

    I suggested for entertainment value for him to try my plinking load in his rifle. When I told him what it was he said it was a waste of time.

    LC once fired brass prepped on a 550. RCBS lube-decap die station one. Dillon size trim die with trimmer station three. Lube tumbled off, then crimp removed with the Dillon swage tool. Loaded on the same press. WWSR, 25.5 gr Accurate Arms 2230S powder, WW 55gr FMJ bulk bullet.

    The load grouped right between 1 and 1 1/4”. That was 5 shots at 200 yards. My friend was not happy. In fact, he ended up shooting 5 more groups and not one went over 1 ¼”. Then he was very unhappy.

    The point being unless one is going for benchrest level accuracy most loads will out shoot the shooter.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,948
    Marylandstan
    Some years ago, a friend and I were doing a little shooting. He was shooting his pet load out of a Remington 700 PS in 223. Other than having a witch doctor bless his load I don’t think there was anything that was missed. The cases were weighed, sorted, trimmed for length, necks turned, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes done. He would even sort the bullets by weight. He had some device, I don’t remember the name, that he used to check jacket thickness on the bullets. And don’t get me started on how he used a press. I’m sure there are some things I forget. But, one gets the idea.

    His five shot groups at 200 yards were right around ¾”. He was happy.

    I suggested for entertainment value for him to try my plinking load in his rifle. When I told him what it was he said it was a waste of time.

    LC once fired brass prepped on a 550. RCBS lube-decap die station one. Dillon size trim die with trimmer station three. Lube tumbled off, then crimp removed with the Dillon swage tool. Loaded on the same press. WWSR, 25.5 gr Accurate Arms 2230S powder, WW 55gr FMJ bulk bullet.

    The load grouped right between 1 and 1 1/4”. That was 5 shots at 200 yards. My friend was not happy. In fact, he ended up shooting 5 more groups and not one went over 1 ¼”. Then he was very unhappy.

    The point being unless one is going for benchrest level accuracy most loads will out shoot the shooter.

    Not only a good shot, but a very good load.. 1 1/4 at 200 yds
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Having a lot of the same brass (from same production lot, not simply a pile of it) from the same maker will help.

    For something you're trying to get the best out of I would buy new stuff and keep good notes on it.

    ^^^This

    There are many variations of FC brass.
     

    sgt23preston

    USMC LLA. NRA Life Member
    May 19, 2011
    3,995
    Perry Hall
    A word of caution here...

    Chasing after the perfect bullet weight, powder & load can be frustrating, disappointing & take the fun out of shooting your rifle...

    Reloading for pistol is a lot more cost & time effective & fun...

    So unless you are committed to BENCH REST RIFLE SHOOTING ACCURACY,

    My advice is to buy some MATCH GRADE RIFLE AMMO with various bullet weights & find the one that shoots best from your rifle, get a GOOD SCOPE & BIPOD for your rifle then practice, practice practice trigger control & enjoy your shooting...

    My goal is simply to put 30 rounds in one 3 inch orange dot at 100 yards...

    It is a goal I can hit every time out, with every rifle caliber & it's still fun...

    Still Keeping it Simple, Sarge...
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,191
    Davidsonville
    Just a thought, two options given are
    1) Buy match grade brass (consistent) and go
    2) Buy the gauges to make consistent brass and go

    Question, how long before the match grade brass will require gauges anyway?
    My first thought is that it will all outshoot the shooter when the shooter is me :)
    All very good info in this thread, happy to say I have read all of this here in the past, MDShooters. Thanks.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    What is your final objective? Bench rest shooting one bullet through the hole the previous one made? XTC 800 Agg matches? Loading for rapid fire mag dumps in the general direction of a barn?

    If it's not the bench rest stuff, don't sweat it. A little dose of sacrilege here...

    I put some results up here a couple years ago somewhere re: some testing I did. In a nutshell, I took a box of issued service match ammo (Mk 262 I think) and split it between two mags. Then took a random pile of brass that was prepped all the same. A wolf primer, some Varget powder, 77gr SMK on top. Lee dies on a Loadmaster progressive. Then filled out a spreadsheet from the bottom up for each of a handfull of mags as I loaded each mag. Down to the range with my service rifle and chrony to make things go bang.

    Ten rounds of issued match ammo, each shot velocity recorded with as close to the same time between shots as I could without being super anal about it. Then random brass mags: LC96, WCC05, IMI, PPU, WIN, LC04, etc.. completely random cases with everything else the same as possible (again from the progressive press). Finally finished up with the other 10 rounds of Mk 262 match ammo.

    Results? The deviation between shots was SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER between the match ammo than the random brass I loaded. I don't recall the exact numbers but I was perplexed enough to repeat the experiment to confirm it.

    Knowing this, I made up 5 rounds of each .1 grains of powder in the manufacturer's recipe book from smallest to largest and then shot them to see what each load group looked like. Different barrels like different velocities. My objective was to develop MY load for 800 Agg XTC matches. No wind bench shooting was well under MOA - without sweating every little detail.

    If you want to shoot the bench rest stuff, go for it but there are far more funner things to do with my time. YYMV, IANAL, IANaDistinguishedShooter, etc.

    Good to know. The barrel should be capable of 1 MOA. I'll be shooting off a bipod from an AR, so this is not going to be a one ragged hole at 500m rifle. I just don't know how much of a factor the brass is. If LC will give me a 4 MOA round and match brass with give me a 1 MOA round, then I'm clearly not using LC. If it doesn't affect it that much, I'm good. 1-2 MOA will make me happy.

    No pro........I mean You Are Welcome.:D
    :lol:
    Some years ago, a friend and I were doing a little shooting. He was shooting his pet load out of a Remington 700 PS in 223. Other than having a witch doctor bless his load I don’t think there was anything that was missed. The cases were weighed, sorted, trimmed for length, necks turned, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes done. He would even sort the bullets by weight. He had some device, I don’t remember the name, that he used to check jacket thickness on the bullets. And don’t get me started on how he used a press. I’m sure there are some things I forget. But, one gets the idea.

    His five shot groups at 200 yards were right around ¾”. He was happy.

    I suggested for entertainment value for him to try my plinking load in his rifle. When I told him what it was he said it was a waste of time.

    LC once fired brass prepped on a 550. RCBS lube-decap die station one. Dillon size trim die with trimmer station three. Lube tumbled off, then crimp removed with the Dillon swage tool. Loaded on the same press. WWSR, 25.5 gr Accurate Arms 2230S powder, WW 55gr FMJ bulk bullet.

    The load grouped right between 1 and 1 1/4”. That was 5 shots at 200 yards. My friend was not happy. In fact, he ended up shooting 5 more groups and not one went over 1 ¼”. Then he was very unhappy.

    The point being unless one is going for benchrest level accuracy most loads will out shoot the shooter.

    Thanks. LC it is.
     
    If you want the most out of your brass?

    Measure the volume of each piece and only use those that are the same.

    :thumbsup:
    how? Powder or water?


    I use 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and a syringe. (fast, but not too fast evaporation and no case corrosion)
    At 100yds, it really doesn't matter, but a .2ml volume difference between cases will become very apparent at 1000yds.
    I am by no means a reloading expert, but I feel comfortable saying that precision loads should have the powder hand trickled on a balance scale vs. progressive dumped. Inconsistent case volumes, seating depths and powder spreads of .1gr will be amplified past 500yds. I believe consistency is far more important than brands.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    I use 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and a syringe. (fast, but not too fast evaporation and no case corrosion)
    At 100yds, it really doesn't matter, but a .2ml volume difference between cases will become very apparent at 1000yds.
    I am by no means a reloading expert, but I feel comfortable saying that precision loads should have the powder hand trickled on a balance scale vs. progressive dumped. Inconsistent case volumes, seating depths and powder spreads of .1gr will be amplified past 500yds. I believe consistency is far more important than brands.

    I want round groups not square groups. I'm not listening to you....
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,931
    Messages
    7,259,491
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom