VICTORY IN PALMER!!!!

Tyeraxus said:

What part of "20+ years where the ONLY people carrying were doing so illegally (EDIT: or LEOs of some stripe)" don't you get? You can't change two decades of professional conditioning overnight.

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Professional conditioning that overrides intellect, conscience, and understanding of individual rights, liberty, and what it means to be in the USA isn't professional, it's paid barbarism. If they haven't discarded or at very least compartmentalized that and are capable of making sound judgement calls already I can't say I sympathize with them much.

You're in the personal finance industry, right? Think about a change in tax laws where IRAs, 401(k)s, and other retirement planning vehicles were no longer tax deferred. Could you adjust to that and provide sound professional advice to your clients overnight? Now imagine if you get it wrong once, you could die. You confident in your ability to understand the changes and shake years of training and experience with a 100% accuracy rate instantly?

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Rerouting financial plans in progress would be tricky, but it can be done. It would be a matter of detailed analysis of current assets, projections of the future, etc. but that's fairly intensive and implemented over weeks, months, and years...not seconds. VASTLY a more complex situation. But yes I could make the change, and the only instant part of that is forming a broad plan to start the conversation about it. Difficult, sure--letting people know shocking developments that could reshape their entire reality as they know is not an easy speech to give, email to write, morning to wake up to with a dozen voicemails from people in all kinds of states of threatening panic.

Helping someone file a death claim on their dad the same day they find out they lost their job and they're pregnant--yeah, that kind of adjustment SUCKS to have to be near. I still remember the name, the face, and both jobs I got them employee benefits at, and I hope I never see that kind of "I know it isn't your fault but I can't make myself feel it isn't" look on a girl's face like that again. I won't count on it that I won't, but I hope not, because that made me feel like I was the most rotten person on Earth by not being able to do a thing about it other than say I was sorry for their loss. I could talk about a business owner I almost got to know who was going to ensure their shop but got killed on their own property mowing their lawn. Finding out about that by going into the appointment for that policy paperwork from a person telling me who along with at least 10 others were losing their jobs because that meeting wasn't a week or two before REALLY sucks. I could drive you to that address right now of where that meat shop was. Ah, and then shall we get into the episode of having to tell a couple they owed $20K in taxes because that the large sum of money they took out of retirement savings to buy a house was tax exempt the year before they did it, so they did it the next year when that provision ended, and the people doing the mortgage at the bank didn't tell them?

Yeah, no, sorry, not buying it that this is that hard an adjustment for someone to act normally like a few hundred thousand other someones who has their job virtually everywhere else in the country.

It's not about whether it's right or wrong on a theoretical level, it's about recognizing the actual facts on the ground are what they are, and that all people are very resistant to change of any kind (in fact, there's an entire industry of consultants built around that bit of human nature).

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Resistance to change of doing the right thing that if they're decent people they know is right in the first place?

PO2012 said:

I don't think that notification should be mandatory because during the overwhelming majority of contacts notification is simply unnecessary and often creates more problems than it solves. This is especially true with young Officers who for some reason feel the need to run the serial number of every firearm they encounter through NCIC to see if it's stolen thus opening an entirely different can of worms. Every situation is different and should be assessed on its own merits.

I would strongly advise that you notify the Officer that you're armed upon initial contact if the gun is going to be exposed or otherwise come into play. An example would be if your firearm is in the glove compartment with your registration. If I stop your vehicle and you have to move your revolver out of the way to show me your registration card please do me the courtesy of letting me know that before you open the glove box. That type of unthinking behavior will get you killed. Same thing goes for if you carry your weapon and your driver's license in the same area like I do. If I'm stopped off duty by another Officer and he requests my license I stay completely still with my hands on the wheel and tell him that I'll be happy to get it for him but before I do he should know that my off duty weapon and license are on my strong side and what would he like me to do. The biggest mistake you can make is to say that you're armed and then immediately start reaching for things. The Officer has no way of knowing what you're reaching for and may assume that you're trying to kill him. This is particularly true at night which is why I suggest turning on your dome lights when stopped after dusk and rolling down your windows.

Now as far as being contacted by a citizen (i.e. approached on foot) you're free to tell me that you're armed or not. As long as you're not approaching me about a situation where your armed status is going to come into play, such as asking for directions or wanting me to sign a repair order, I don't need to know. On the other hand, if you're coming up to inform me that you've just been involved in a domestic or that there's a robbery in progress going on down the road you need to let me know. In the first instance, I guarantee that your angry significant other is going to start yelling "He's got a gun!" and in the second I may need your assistance.

Everything above is my personal advice. Every agency is different and every Officer/Deputy/Trooper has his own way of doing things. Some would like to know in every case, others sometimes and a few never under any circumstances. Bottom line: use common sense.

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Thanks for the reply.

I see it mostly the same way.

For most calm interactions I have no issue notifying " I have a carry permit" I am also thinking that having an easy way to show the permit ie a neck id of something may help quite a bit.

Must notify under penalty of law adds unnecessary stress and drama to an already stressful situation which may lead to misunderstanding.

Brooklyn said:

Thanks for the reply.

I see it mostly the same way.

For most calm interactions I have no issue notifying " I have a carry permit" I am also thinking that having an easy way to show the permit ie a neck id of something may help quite a bit.

Must notify under penalty of law adds unnecessary stress and drama to an already stressful situation which may lead to misunderstanding.

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I think with the statement bolded above it is pretty clear that you do not have any carry permits. Is that assumption correct? For the record wearing a carry permit out in the open is a horrible idea. This action would truly defeat the purpose of concealed carry don't you think? Bye bye tactical advantage. Open carry would be a better idea than wearing a Handgun Permit/LTCF around your neck.

How about keeping a photocopy of your license in the visor above the drivers seat (assuming "traffic stop" scenario)? Reaching up there couldn't possibly be seen as a threatening move, could it?

yellowfin said:

What training is required to act normal, treat other people exactly as if they were yourself, be polite and calm, and not be rude and hostile? To not be some macho "You're not a cop, so you must be doing something illegal, and dammit I'm going to find it!" mentality? If that's an adjustment, that's a problem for them to sort out regardless of what change in the law there is or isn't going on. Training? No, joining reality. And possibly intense psychotherapy.

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Theres no point in addressing you anymore, you lose all credibility when your ?s are posed its manner that screams "dickhead" Also ive already answered that in previous posts yourefuse to properly read.

Haides said:

How about keeping a photocopy of your license in the visor above the drivers seat (assuming "traffic stop" scenario)? Reaching up there couldn't possibly be seen as a threatening move, could it?

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My wallet with numerous carry permits gets placed in the center console cup holder every time I get in the car. Easy to reach in plain view and completely non-threatening. A photo copy has no legal standing so I wouldn't suggest it. I also make sure that my carry permits are not exposed the second I remove my drivers license. If you remember the FL guy passing through MD near the tunnel, his undoing was the MTAP officer allegedly saw his FL carry permit. If I am in a "notification required" jurisdiction everything is at my fingertips and NOT near my weapon(s).

boundlessdyad said:

My wallet with numerous carry permits gets placed in the center console cup holder every time I get in the car. Easy to reach in plain view and completely non-threatening. A photo copy has no legal standing so I wouldn't suggest it. I also make sure that my carry permits are not exposed the second I remove my drivers license. If you remember the FL guy passing through MD near the tunnel, his undoing was the MTAP officer allegedly saw his FL carry permit. If I am in a "notification required" jurisdiction everything is at my fingertips and NOT near my weapon(s).

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I realize a photocopy has no legal standing, I was just thinking of something to show quick & easy in a non-threatening way. Then we can worry about showing the real one when we've established the ccw'er isn't a threat. But I've never carried, idk, that's why I asked. That's smart keeping your wallet in the center console. I don't do that because I'm liable to forget it when I leave the car lol.

If the officer can't see what you're reaching for, even on the sun visor it's the same thing as reaching into your glove box IMO. You could have a knife behind the sun visor. If he can't see it, it's a possible problem for him. The above suggestion of having your wallet in plain sight makes some sense, but mine is normally in my pocket. I simply tell the LEO," I have a permit and I have my firearm on me. How do you want me to proceed?"

worked last month when I got stopped in VA on the way to the OBX. The LEO just said thanks for letting me know. end of story.

YMMV.

boundlessdyad said:

I think with the statement bolded above it is pretty clear that you do not have any carry permits. Is that assumption correct? For the record wearing a carry permit out in the open is a horrible idea. This action would truly defeat the purpose of concealed carry don't you think? Bye bye tactical advantage. Open carry would be a better idea than wearing a Handgun Permit/LTCF around your neck.

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And how ,without being close enough to actually read it, would they know its not just my corporate id.

Nor does it need to be visible until I remove it from its position tucked into my shirt.--- Yes that's how I wear my corp id when not on premises..

Do you think, baring a shoulder holster, it would less of an issue to fish for my Id from a neck band than from a wallet in my hip pocket right next to my iwb holster?


Of course this is all thinking out loud.. your comments are welcome....

As are anyone else's..

Brooklyn said:

And how ,without being close enough to actually read it, would they know its not just my corporate id.

Nor does it need to be visible until I remove it from its position tucked I to my shirt.--- Yes that's how I wear my corp id when not on premises..

Do you think, baring a shoulder holster, it would less of an issue to fish for my Id from a neck band than from a wallet in my hip pocket right next to my iwb holster?


Of course this is all thinking out loud.. your comments are welcome....

As are anyone else's..

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I notice you ducked the question. Again I assume you have no carry permits and/or experience. Is that assumption correct? The bolded statement above further demonstrates this. "Excuse me Mr. Officer do you mind if I reach inside my shirt to show you something". F--k that. I won't be hanging out with anyone armed or unarmed unless their judgement shows concern for their safety and that of others. You are likely to get everyone around you shot reaching inside your shirt for a hidden ID.

Re 401ks - We had the "great recession" in 2007, where a lot of people lost money. People sucked it up and dealt with it. I recovered my losses and much more.

mpdc4511 said:

Theres no point in addressing you anymore, you lose all credibility when your ?s are posed its manner that screams "dickhead" Also ive already answered that in previous posts you refuse to properly read.

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It took awhile to get through lots of the previous posts, being there's over 1200 of them, and if it comes across me being a dickhead it is in response to the rather gross asymmetry of the DC police's ability to ruin people's lives, or worse case accidentally end them, because of an absurdity. I maybe speak with a little too much contempt because the presumption of criminality attitude and the course of action concurrent therewith is in fact contemptible.

Now, as Rack N Roll posts about the Good DC vs. Hellhole DC dichotomy, I agree that maybe that preconditions some to being used to dealing with scum, and the sample selects for the worst rather than the better. Resultingly it shouldn't be that much to expect of the general population to dress nice(r), perhaps speak clearly and cleanly, and generally act more civilized to provide everyone, not just police, information that they themselves aren't the human slime they shouldn't want to be confused with. So maybe it's a two way street with cars going the wrong direction on both sides and I only addressed one wrong lane and that came off as wrong.

boundlessdyad said:

I notice you ducked the question. Again I assume you have no carry permits and/or experience. Is that assumption correct? The bolded statement above further demonstrates this. "Excuse me Mr. Officer do you mind if I reach inside my shirt to show you something". F--k that. I won't be hanging out with anyone armed or unarmed unless their judgement shows concern for their safety and that of others. You are likely to get everyone around you shot reaching inside your shirt for a hidden ID.

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I have a Utah . Never been stopped while carrying. Don't see why pulling on a neck strap to make my id. Visible is more threatening than. Reaching for a hip wallet.esp if that's where my gun is.

.
In any case allways explain what I am doing and why.

Unless its a long drive I leave my wallet in my pocket.

Frankly, I never asked to hang out with you.. but your comments are still welcome.

Btw. I have been stopped while carying my" hidden ID. The neck band makes it clear enough that there is something in my shirt. Yes it could be a neck knife so we say " my id and a copy of my permit are on my neck wallet and my orgininal is in my wallet right hip pocket next to my pistol."


Not once has an officer expressed concern over my " concealed I'd. Which prints quite noticably.

Brooklyn said:

I have a Utah . Never been stopped while carrying. Don't see why pulling on a neck strap to make my id. Visible is more threatening than. Reaching for a hip wallet.esp if that's where my gun is.

.
In any case allways explain what I am doing and why.

Unless its a long drive I leave my wallet in my pocket.

Frankly, I never asked to hang out with you.. but your comments are still welcome.

Btw. I have been stopped while carying my" hidden ID. The neck band makes it clear enough that there is something in my shirt. Yes it could be a neck knife so we say " my id and a copy of my permit are on my neck wallet and my orgininal is in my wallet right hip pocket next to my pistol."


Not once has an officer expressed concern over my " concealed I'd. Which prints quite noticably.

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Keep doing what you are doing. Seems like it is working for you.

With respect to everyone, I think all sides have fully expressed their opinions regarding Palmer and possible LEO (re)training that may or may not take place.

How about mods getting us back to Palmer.

Thread has been hijacked.

I happen to be a retired LEO from NJ and current part time NJ shore cop during summer, as well as 2A supporter.

I see that excellent points have been made by all.

But any chance of legal eagles readdressing strategies, tactics, probabilities etc?

I suppose one factor is what members of the DC council other than Mendelson come out with to say and/or what pressure can be applied to them towards crafting a reasonable shall issue law, and what they do with it. Will they wait the full 90 days to get something on paper? If it isn't adequate, and many expect that it won't be, I'm guessing Mr. Gura has a complaint already drafted with a few blanks to fill in for getting Justice Scullin to strike down a defective law as not being in compliance with the ruling. Second is what possible reasoning could DC employ towards asking for a longer stay, what our side can say to defeat it, and what the inclination is for the Circuit towards such ahead of time which often determines what the outcome is regardless of what either side says. Those are the things that happen first chronologically.

Or they can just continue to play games, appeal to the DC Circuit, and ask them for a stay.

Based on their past behavior, I'd be surprised if they don't do this.

Jerzee Transplant said:

With respect to everyone, I think all sides have fully expressed their opinions regarding Palmer and possible LEO (re)training that may or may not take place.

How about mods getting us back to Palmer.

Thread has been hijacked.

I happen to be a retired LEO from NJ and current part time NJ shore cop during summer, as well as 2A supporter.

I see that excellent points have been made by all.

But any chance of legal eagles readdressing strategies, tactics, probabilities etc?

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DC is allowed to file an optional Reply Brief re the Stay Extension past 90 days. That Reply is due Monday, 8/11/14.

http://alangura.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/stay_order_073014.pdf

Concur re the derail...

Tom Palmer, Dick Heller, Shelly Parker and numerous other law abiding citizens have waited well over 10 yrs. Let's stop the foot dragging and the shenanigans. Enough is enough.

Washington cops have had 2 weeks since the recent Palmer decision.

Lets everyone just respect the law and get over themselves.

Since I very rarely carry a handbag,I keep my DL in a leather bi-fold business card holder,one side holds the DL and credit cards and other side holds my ccw licenses which both are covered by a flap which I keep in my blouse pocket..no threat,not in rear jean back pocket..but,then everyone has their own way of carrying their ID's..