Second Amendment Foundation: We Don’t Support Guns at Political Protests

EL1227 · Aug 25, 2017

GlocksAndPatriots said:
I agree with that too. I think of open carry like this. You open carry (or concealed carry, for that matter) a handgun in case trouble finds you. You open carry a rifle when you're either expecting trouble or looking for it. While the latter is legal, you're always going to come off looking bad if you do it, outside of when you grab a rifle to protect your own property.

Self-regulation is the end-game of politically correctness. In succumbing to it who are you protecting, your rights or someone else's feelings ? Sure, the choice to open carry is situation dependent and YOUR reason to open carry plays into it, but aren't you overlooking the obvious ... the more you hide it, the more sensitized snowflakes are when they are legally and safely exposed to it ?

I am reminded of an experience in Scottsdale, AZ

While staying at a Marriott resort, my wife and I arranged a desert jeep tour that included some 'old west style' plinking. While waiting in the lobby with about 2 dozen other couples who were queued up for their golf T-times ... in walks two cowboys with gleaming .45 Colt Peacemakers strapped on their hips. In unison, the room fell silent as every head turned in their direction. Our tour guides called out our name and as we left, the room went back to a normal din of conversation. I wouldn't imagine that happening 'back east', because some snowflake would be frantically calling 911, while the others were diving under tables.

Another personal example:

I routinely wear 2A and firearm related t-shirts when out and about. My reason isn't to intimidate, but educate. I have never been challenged and have gotten more than a few compliments. While not the same as open carry, it does convey the message of responsible firearm ownership and defense of 2A.

GlocksAndPatriots · Aug 25, 2017

EL1227 said:
Self-regulation is the end-game of politically correctness. In succumbing to it who are you protecting, your rights or someone else's feelings ? Sure, the choice to open carry is situation dependent and YOUR reason to open carry plays into it, but aren't you overlooking the obvious ... the more you hide it, the more sensitized snowflakes are when they are legally and safely exposed to it ?

I am reminded of an experience in Scottsdale, AZ

While staying at a Marriott resort, my wife and I arranged a desert jeep tour that included some 'old west style' plinking. While waiting in the lobby with about 2 dozen other couples who were queued up for their golf T-times ... in walks two cowboys with gleaming .45 Colt Peacemakers strapped on their hips. In unison, the room fell silent as every head turned in their direction. Our tour guides called out our name and as we left, the room went back to a normal din of conversation. I wouldn't imagine that happening 'back east', because some snowflake would be frantically calling 911, while the others were diving under tables.

Another personal example:

I routinely wear 2A and firearm related t-shirts when out and about. My reason isn't to intimidate, but educate. I have never been challenged and have gotten more than a few compliments. While not the same as open carry, it does convey the message of responsible firearm ownership and defense of 2A.

Sorry, but I don't see how you your story counters what I said. There's a huge difference between walking into a room with a .45 holstered on your side and walking into a room with an AR and wearing camouflage.

EL1227 · Aug 25, 2017

GlocksAndPatriots said:
Sorry, but I don't see how you your story counters what I said. There's a huge difference between walking into a room with a .45 holstered on your side and walking into a room with an AR and wearing camouflage.

Not really. Context is everything.

A holstered .45 Colt in a hotel lobby filled with golf enthusiasts could be just as intimidating if it weren't for the fact that in AZ holstered firearms are common place. If that same scenario occurred in a golf resort in VA, the reaction might be a little more frantic.

The same applies to an AR strapped across one's chest, camo or no camo. If it were any legal open carry state other than one where antifa were looking for a fight, the reaction would have been ho-hum. Case in point was the recent march on the NRA (below) where reporters just walked right up and asked us questions.

Again, you shouldn't flaunt your 2A right, but you should NOT be afraid to legally exercise it. Over the past decade, the burden of political correctness and forced self-censorship has taken it's toll on the exercise of all of our freedoms, not just 2A. It's time we stand and fight.

ryan_j · Aug 25, 2017

t84a said:
This sums it up and I agree with them:

I agree with that.

I also think that antifa walking around with guns because they want to intimidate people is not something I support.

kcbrown · Aug 25, 2017

ryan_j said:
I agree with that.

I also think that antifa walking around with guns because they want to intimidate people is not something I support.

Intentionally intimidating people is something I don't support. I don't care if it's through carrying firearms, pitchforks, clubs, or use of body language, or words, or anything else.

We need to stop pointing at the firearms as having anything to do with any of this. It's the behavior, not the instrument, that is at issue.

Looks to me like we've lost. We've lost because we've started to adopt the views of the opposition, the very views that have inexorably led them to be the opposition in the first place. If we keep it up, we'll be at the same place they are and will no longer have a leg to stand on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bob A · Aug 25, 2017

Walking around with visible weapons where it is legal to do so is not intimidation.

If you want to address intimidation, you need to deal with those who generate undifferentiated fear in the population by harping on scary stuff. If the media chose to point out favorably that open carry is in fact legal in most states, and it has not been responsible for mass slaughter, the intimidation factor would be considerably less.

Remember the MSNBC correspondent who stated "It's our job to tell you what to think." It sounds like a lot of people on this site are paying attention to that, and accepting what they're told to believe.

ironpony · Aug 25, 2017

Has the SAF (or other orgs) ever made a stance statement in the past that may have been controversial? If so did it help or harm? My vote leans the way of no statement in this incident.

qwertee123 · Aug 25, 2017

Like the OP and others have stated, I would have preferred that SAF not make statements that appear to endorse limiting 2A during the exercise of 1A.

That said, none of the 2A groups I've supported through life membership and additional donations are perfect.

But I'll continue to support them as long as they all work hard to put forth and win legal cases expanding 2A rights.

When they seek to abridge those rights, then I'll stop my support.

Stoveman · Aug 25, 2017

Bob A said:
Walking around with visible weapons where it is legal to do so is not intimidation.

Bingo.

At the NRA event the various members of the press, mostly women, had ZERO qualms about coming over and speaking to any of us who were open carrying. And when R&R strapped on the AR they practically trampled over each other making a bee line for him.

All this talk about concealed carry being the "civil" way to carry is complete hogwash. Once we give in on AR carry then it will be handgun OC and then CC itself. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the libs will stop once you have demonstrated the proper amount of HoCo approved "civility".

Ngrovcam · Aug 31, 2017

My concern, regardless of event, is that
people are people.

Someone totally legal to carry open or otherwise, can overreact
or just be guilty of being stupid in public.

The "anti" side might seek to instigate
an incident for PR purposes - and,
would get the full support of the MSM.

And, yes, even law enforcement folks
can make poor judgements that could
play out or be spun against 2A
supporters.

I know I will incur the wrath of some of
you whom I respect, when I say I do
not support carriage at these events.
At any of them. Let's trust to our
law enforcement folks, and not be
chivvied into actions that may be totally
justified at the moment, but that will
work against us in the long run. (I
am sure someone may have a comment
here on LE non-actions at Berkeley
and Charlottesville...and, rightfully so.)

Another angle is that when we show up armed, that encourages the other side
to do so, as well.

Aside from the escalation that
represents, frankly, I don't trust their
judgement and would expect that any
tragic incident would likely originate
on their side.

The best we can do is to be present,
be adamant, and visible. I like the
visual of showing up with obviously
empty holsters.

If the public debate ever gets so
extreme that the use of firearms is
really necessary, God forbid, we will
all be in big trouble as
a nation...recognizing that some will
be better prepared for such a scenario
than others.

I know I am often out of sync with
many of you, and out here alone on the prairie on some of my thoughts as
regards public visibility. No disrespect
intended.

Rack&Roll · Aug 31, 2017

Ngrovcam: I see that you say we should "trust LE" and not carry openly, but respectfully, OC is not about trusting LE in that moment, but about re-acquainting the public with the fact that carrying firearms openly is a right that just happens NOT to be exercised regularly.

We can say that OC --where allowed--is not exercised out of some "sense of civility" but that completely hiding the exercise of firearms carry does not advance 2A awareness--ever.

Ngrovcam · Aug 31, 2017

Rack, understood. Thank you for
taking the time and trouble...I know
you have bigger fish to fry, just now.

I guess aside from trying to avoid a
tragedy that none of us on this side
of the issue(s) want, I am thinking of
the optics as perceived by the great unwashed masses of what we often
refer to as "sheeple"...but, who vote.

I truly don't pretend to know where
the right balance point is. I DO know
the media will never, ever make us
look credible, civil, well-intentioned, or
even sane.

But, I think we are still at a stage at
which we need to consider
carefully others' perceptions. A lighter
touch now might be useful.

I think an unwanted tragedy, especially
if instigated by our opposition (And,
I don't put that level of plotting past
them), could be devastating to our cause...and, I think
the president already has enough
battles to fight.

Should we get to a point where we
need to be more fully in the face of
the opposition, I'm fully onboard.
Unfortunately, I think events, such
as with the expanding presence of
Antifa, etc., are trending that way.

Rack&Roll · Aug 31, 2017

I take the long view on this. We don't engage in gunfights over infringements voted into law by lying, fact-free firearm-triggered ANTIs and their brainless lackeys. We rely on the courts.

Once the courts fail us in dramatic fashion, we have decisions to make.

We can't be cowed by threats of future infringements from the ANTIs who always want to choke off constitutional rights.

As with the Free Speech demonstrations, we have to continue Open Carrying to show we are refusing their chains.

Finally, OC opportunities are meant to energize and rally our allies, more so, than to pursuade our opponents to stop infringing.

The best example of choked-off Constitional rights is Open Carry Rifle in Maryland. You'll sooner see a Dodo Bird...

Ngrovcam · Aug 31, 2017

Rack&Roll said:
The best example of choked-off Constitional rights is Open Carry Rifle in Maryland. You'll sooner see a Dodo Bird...

I guess there is some history, there,
Rack...care to summarize? I have to plead ignorant.

Stoveman · Aug 31, 2017

Ngrovcam said:
I guess there is some history, there,
Rack...care to summarize? I have to plead ignorant.

Little Dougy Gansler argued in the Woolard case that May Issue is constitutional because we have long gun OC. When is the last time you were riding down the road and spotted a guy with an AR slung over his back?

fidelity · Sep 1, 2017

For the past two weeks in various news organs (LA Times and USA Today, most recently), there has been an editorial assault on open carry laws.

In this USA Today piece ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...arms-public-rallies-demonstrations/586998001/

... the writer focuses on political demonstrations, noting Maryland's prohibition of firearms at such events. The writer makes the claim that those who are open carrying are intimidating the free speech rights of others (while showing a picture of III%ers at Charlottesville).

The hypocrisy is deafening. In the last year, it's the left that's become intolerant of free speech, attempting to shut down opposing viewpoints in Berkeley, Charlottesville, and Boston, to name a few. They've achieved this through violence, intimidation, and complicit politicians in these venues. Where have those carrying arms tried to suppress the free speech of others through action or intimidation? The guy in Charlottesville fired a round after chaos and violence set in (and the loser that murdered used a car). There's been no effort by those on the right, such as the III%ers, to interfere with the free speech of the increasingly violent left. But the editorial writers are focused on the guns.

I guess the left wants their monopoly on violence to go unchallenged. There is an odd consistency in the editorials. While they claim they want to protect the first amendment, their actions suggest disregard for it. Obviously, they don't pretend to care for the second amendment either.

joppaj · Sep 1, 2017

If I were at an event and I see non-police arriving with rifles, vests and "tactical" gear, I'm leaving. I don't know them, don't know their intent and if they have malicious plans I am seriously out gunned. The first rule of survival is avoid dumb situations when you can and that qualifies.

Gryphon · Sep 1, 2017

The mere existence of firearams, whether handguns or long guns, and whether concealed or openly carried by law abiding folks, effectively suppresses violent conduct by those wishing to suppress free speech by any other attendees. Holstered pistols and properly slung long guns don't intimidate anyone other than those prone to needing safe spaces and participation trophies to function on a daily basis. On the other hand, they evoke respect from those cowards otherwise intending violence. Harrisburg was not Berkeley I or Berkeley II. At the NRA attendees on both sides of the political spectrum were present, were armed both openly and concealed, and not a bit of trouble. Free speech won out despite the presence of firearms. Same for Gettysburg.

Stoveman · Sep 1, 2017

At the Women's March on Friday at the NRA where there were at least 25 of us heavily armed it was amazing how polite the loony lefties were to us. They didn't come over to our area and scream and holler and try to get in our personal space. They did their thing, we did ours.

Fast forward a day and the same group of moonbats thought nothing of crossing the road and standing right next to us, screaming and cursing and generally trying to disrupt because they thought that all of us were unarmed.

Striking the difference in behavior when we crossed the river into DC....

MikeTF · Sep 1, 2017

joppaj said:
If I were at an event and I see non-police arriving with rifles, vests and "tactical" gear, I'm leaving. I don't know them, don't know their intent and if they have malicious plans I am seriously out gunned. The first rule of survival is avoid dumb situations when you can and that qualifies.

This is a point worth considering at all times.

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