Questions Regarding Transporting Firearms In Car

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  • RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,057
    What differentiates a "fastened" sack from any other?

    Turn an unfastened sack upside down and your nuts will all fall out.

    lokztVy.jpg


    See?
     

    ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,662
    so, not to put too fine point on it... an enclosed case need not be locked. If I slip my long guns into a zippered case, and my short guns and ammo into a zippered range bag, then place both into the back of my SUV, beyond the reach of the driver, I'm good. Yes? I have always locked each container. Will continue to do so, but from what I have read above, not necessary to comply. (isn't BGOS fun? :( )
     
    Last edited:

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Yes . But nowhere in MD 4-203 or FOPA does it mention out of reach of the driver.

    Your method is legal even if not out of reach for transport in MD.

    FOPA requires placement in the trunk but never mentions “out of reach”
     

    RoadDawg

    Nos nostraque Deo
    Dec 6, 2010
    94,057
    Yes . But nowhere in MD 4-203 or FOPA does it mention out of reach of the driver.

    Your method is legal even if not out of reach for transport in MD.

    FOPA requires placement in the trunk but never mentions “out of reach”

    You must comply with the laws of the state through which you travel.

    Maryland requires the weapon/s to be unloaded and out of the reach and control of the driver. The glove box is a no no.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    No it doesn’t. You can't comply with the MD statute because Interstate travel is not an allowed exceptio under 4-203. All you can do is comply with FOPA.If you comply with FOPA while going THROUGH a state that is not your destination all you need to do is comply with FOPA. That’s the entire reason for the statute. It protects you from more strict state statutes while you travel THROUGH a state that is not your destination. My point is neither FOPA or MD 4-203 mention “out of reach”. FOPA does say "not accessible from the passenger compartment" Two different things if you are being literal. Not accessible is accomplished by the FOPA requirement of being put in the trunk or in a vehicle with no trunk either firearm or ammo be in a locked case. The only requirement in MD is unloaded in an enclosed case or holster. In MD being in a a glove box is completely legal if it’s on one of the two legal case or holster requirement, unloaded, and you are engaged in one of the allowed activities under MD 4-203

    No where in the MD statute is carry in a glove box prohibited if :

    1. The firearm is in one of the allowed case or holster and is unloaded.
    2. You are in engaged in one of the allowed activities enumerated in the statute.

    Read the last paragraph of AG Bowen's opinion. Carry anywhere in the passenger compartment is legal if the firearm is in an enclosed case or holster as per 4-203. Only applies to travel that start and stop in MD. Anything else, FOPA applies.

    http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...cle=gcr&section=4-203&ext=html&session=2018RS

    But if you are traveling THROUGH MD, then the MD statute does not apply. FOPA does as there is no allowance in 4-203 for Interstate travel.

    The AG opinion on travel says that for MD law to apply, both your origin and destination must be in MD. If not, then by inference FOPA applies

    Also note the 2nd memo says if you carry in compliance with FOPA while transporting Interstate, it is legal "regardless of state law"
    Also note the difference in the terms "carry' and "transport."

    Bowen admits in opinion 2 there is no case law for whether transport interstate is an allowed activity under 4-203. FOPA therefore is your only affirmative defense if prosecuted.

    IANAL or a LEO
    .
     

    Attachments

    • AG opinion on travel 4-203.pdf
      15.4 KB · Views: 98
    • AG ruling FOPA.pdf
      30.2 KB · Views: 95

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,779
    Not sure if Ras_Oscar is using over the top sarcasm , but the methods described are definitely more than in compliance for the * how * of transport .

    [ No info given in post #22 regarding if said transport were Interstate , or specific destination if within Maryland , so no comment possible regarding the * If * of handgun transporting .]
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,779
    One is certainly free to voluntarily use greater degrees of security and/ or discretion , than the legal minimum .

    Under ( certain circumstances ) it can be Wise to do so . Trying to quantify the circumstances , or degree of discretion , leads instantly into heated discussion , with multiple sets of parameters randomly mashed up .
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Carry in a glove box is legal if you comply with 4-203 and your trip starts and ends in MD.

    Statutes ara all about "parameters"

    If your destination is out of state, then it's not.

    That's clear.
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,145
    Davidsonville
    Yes, I would have to think a lot has to do with how the officer assess’ the situation. Wasn’t a member here arrested for pretty much walking down the street? ... twice? Sarcasm.
    At varying points it may be best for public safety for the officer to allow the attorneys to decide this question. In MD I fear these points can be minuscule at times.

    Hoping frosh does not make it through next week.
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,117
    I doubt any two patrol officers in the state of Maryland have the same idea of what is required. If you’re stopped, you’ll be subjected to what they think rather than what you “know.”
     

    ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,662
    Not sure if Ras_Oscar is using over the top sarcasm , but the methods described are definitely more than in compliance for the * how * of transport .

    [ No info given in post #22 regarding if said transport were Interstate , or specific destination if within Maryland , so no comment possible regarding the * If * of handgun transporting .]

    I was referring to transport that begins and ends within Maryland, Sorry I wasn't clear.

    I was not being sarcastic, it's a valid question. I find exploring the edges of the law helpful I defining exactly where the sandbox lies.

    To stretch the conversation even further:

    I have a non resident Utah permit which is not valid in MD but is valid in some adjoining states. Suppose I placed my handgun in a FOPA legal transport condition in the rear of my vehicle, then initiate an interstate trip to VA which is interrupted in Maryland by a traffic stop which ends in a legal search that reveals the presence of the firearm. Without a Maryland accepted transport reason, (traveling to a range, gun shop, ETC) I would be left in violation of the transport laws unless I could prove my intended destination is Virginia, thereby rendering the transport interstate. I have puzzled over this several times as I have plans to do a cross country road trip in the distant future and would be traveling through some jurisdictions where my permit is valid. My only solution is to make a reservation at the NRA range in VA and declare that as my intended destination, making the trip interstate and proof the range reservation confirmation.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Mark Pennak (MSI President and retired attorney) has previously postulated providing proof of Interstate travel would be your only real defense.

    The 2nd AG opinion I posted the AG admits as much because there is no case law addressing the lack of Interstate travel being an allowed exception under the MD statute.

    Your plan seems very well thought out. A reservation solves the outbound proof problem. I keep my NRA range receipts when returning from the Range. I keep fuel and hotel receipts when returning from out of state travel.

    I also keep a copy of reservations when going out of state.

    Anal retentive? Perhaps

    Doesn’t hurt to do the little things to keep yourself out of trouble however
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I was referring to transport that begins and ends within Maryland, Sorry I wasn't clear.

    I was not being sarcastic, it's a valid question. I find exploring the edges of the law helpful I defining exactly where the sandbox lies.

    To stretch the conversation even further:

    I have a non resident Utah permit which is not valid in MD but is valid in some adjoining states. Suppose I placed my handgun in a FOPA legal transport condition in the rear of my vehicle, then initiate an interstate trip to VA which is interrupted in Maryland by a traffic stop which ends in a legal search that reveals the presence of the firearm. Without a Maryland accepted transport reason, (traveling to a range, gun shop, ETC) I would be left in violation of the transport laws unless I could prove my intended destination is Virginia, thereby rendering the transport interstate. I have puzzled over this several times as I have plans to do a cross country road trip in the distant future and would be traveling through some jurisdictions where my permit is valid. My only solution is to make a reservation at the NRA range in VA and declare that as my intended destination, making the trip interstate and proof the range reservation confirmation.

    I don't give legal advice on the fora, but speaking for myself, I would find this to be a good strategy for interstate trips. I would need to present proof that I could possess and carry at the "place" of my origin and proof that I could possess and carry at my place of destination. So, if I was traveling non-stop from Maryland (where I can possess and carry in my home), I would want to show I left my home on an interstate trip to VA. I would want proof of my destination which could be by reference to either reservation information in my possession or some other written means (written range reservation would work for me), all the while transporting in the manner demanded by FOPA (unloaded, gun or ammo in a locked case and gun and ammo in separate cases, preferably out of sight in the trunk). A VA permit would be ideal, followed closely by a permit that VA recognizes as valid (I don't expect the MD LEO to know VA reciprocity law). This is the reason I accumulate a bunch NR permits that cover the places to which I typically travel. If I am going on a long trip, I make reservations in advance in a state which recognizes one of my permits.

    At that point it is up to the Maryland LEO to accept my proof and explanation on the side of the road, or failing that, I would shut up and leave it to my defense counsel to make the argument to the DA or the judge at trial.
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    Snip...

    But if you are traveling THROUGH MD, then the MD statute does not apply. FOPA does as there is no allowance in 4-203 for Interstate travel.

    The AG opinion on travel says that for MD law to apply, both your origin and destination must be in MD. If not, then by inference FOPA applies

    Snip...

    A couple questions on this part.

    First, I don't understand why there would need to be a specific allowance for interstate travel in 4-203. If I'm transporting in Maryland on my way to the range, or any of the other exceptions, why would it matter if I'm going to the AGC, or the NRA range? I'm in Maryland and I'm transporting under a valid exception.

    Secondly, I don't read the letter as above. It doesn't say that for MD law to apply both your origin and destination must be in Maryland. It says that if your origin and destination are both in Maryland then FOPA cannot apply. It's an important difference. The distinction being that you can always transport in MD under MD law. An example of something you could not legally do might be transporting to VA in an enclosed case or holster so you can concealed carry, since that would not be a valid exception under 4-203.
     

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