PS90 SBR Approved by ATF - MD Legal!

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  • ivzarleinad

    Member
    Jun 6, 2017
    19
    I'm sorry - maybe this is a silly question but what is an IP?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    FYI, the PS90 is on the handgun roster.

    And, as I understand, some have been sold as pistols post 2013.

    And yes, MD Not Disapproved the 77r.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,860
    Rockville, MD
    FYI, the PS90 is on the handgun roster.

    And, as I understand, some have been sold as pistols post 2013.

    And yes, MD Not Disapproved the 77r.
    That's because the PS90s on the roster were SBRs back when the MSP decided they needed to be on the roster. No one's selling them as real pistols.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    That's because the PS90s on the roster were SBRs back when the MSP decided they needed to be on the roster. No one's selling them as real pistols.

    NO ONE?????

    Are you SURE?

    Because you are incorrect.

    And as I stated, MSP Not Disapproved the 77r.
     

    tc617

    USN Sub Vet
    Jan 12, 2012
    2,287
    Yuma, Arizona
    Interesting, so it has two butt stocks; The original and the second folding stock which makes it Maryland legal.

    I'm sure it won't be long before some schmuck writes a letter asking the MSP/ATF if shouldering this firearm with the stock folded; thus in a <29" OAL configuration, does that reclassify the firearm as a banned Maryland assault weapon. I'm sure Frosh-hole will happily respond with a vague and confusing opinion. :banghead:
     

    ivzarleinad

    Member
    Jun 6, 2017
    19
    Interesting, so it has two butt stocks; The original and the second folding stock which makes it Maryland legal.

    I'm sure it won't be long before some schmuck writes a letter asking the MSP/ATF if shouldering this firearm with the stock folded; thus in a <29" OAL configuration, does that reclassify the firearm as a banned Maryland assault weapon. I'm sure Frosh-hole will happily respond with a vague and confusing opinion. :banghead:

    This is how I would explain it: The original stock was removed. It was replaced with not two stocks but ONE stock which is "adjustable" or folding. The fact that the weapon can be fired while folded does not make it two different stocks. It is one piece, and the OAL is measured when fully extended. It remains an SBR so it can be shouldered without a problem regardless of the current position of the folding stock.

    I did talk to both the MSP and ATF extensively and they confirmed that as long as this new stock itself is not removed and replaced with something else, it does not matter whether it is folded or unfolded because it remains the same long stock (29" OAL).

    Folding stocks are treated by both the ATF and MSP the same as collapsible stocks. If you have a collapsible stock on your AR that makes it 27" when collapsed but 29" when extended, it is not banned in Maryland since it can be extended to 29." The same is true for folding stocks.
     

    BLACKTALON

    Ammo is like food
    Aug 4, 2011
    3,318
    severna park
    A ps90 pistol is not a thing or I would have one. Duffys sells md model ps90 I believe they are converted to order tho so you might have to wait to get one
     

    ivzarleinad

    Member
    Jun 6, 2017
    19
    I'd like to see a picture of this mythical PS90 pistol. Because, no, I still don't believe it.

    I agree. I tried very hard to get my PS90 to qualify as a pistol under Maryland law and still be an SBR for federal purposes. However the ATF did not agree with my reasoning. This is what they sent me:

    "Please verify overall length as measured from tip of muzzle to rear of fully extended stock. Per Maryland state law, short barrel rifles must have a minimum length of 29 inches."

    I replied with detailed info explaining why I would be compliant with federal and state law, relying on a Maryland police advisory (LD-FRS-14-002). The ATF responded with:

    "Guidelines from MD State Police dated May 2014. Per updated MD Public Safety Code 5-401, effective Oct 1, 2015, a short-barreled rifle is not considered a handgun."

    Then I replied:

    A. The overall length of the firearm applied for will indeed be 19.9 inches as stated on the application. However, this is in compliance with Maryland State law, as I will explain below.

    B. MD Public Safety Code §5-401 does say that the word “handgun” does not include a short-barreled rifle, but only for the purposes of that subtitle. That subtitle deals with the handgun roster and review board, and stipulates that no handgun may be purchased which is not on the roster. As previously communicated, the PS90 is in fact on the handgun roster, which does make it a handgun per Maryland state law. However, this section is no longer relevant since short barreled rifles are not covered by that subtitle any longer.

    C. Regardless, elsewhere in the Maryland code, short-barreled rifles approved by the ATF are still considered “handguns” as a general rule. Two examples are:

    1. MD Criminal Law §4-201(c)(2), still in effect: “Handgun” includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.

    2. MD Public Safety §5-101(n)(1), still in effect: “Handgun” means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

    D. Maryland State Police Advisory LD-FRS-14-002, which is dated May 2, 2014 and which I previously sent to you is still in effect (except for Section VI, which has been rescinded and SBRs are no longer required to be on the roster).

    E. As my previous letter states, the police advisory, along with Maryland state law, makes it clear that, as long as the ATF approves my Form 1, the firearm will be legal in Maryland and considered a handgun, since the barrel will be less than 16 inches.


    In summary, Maryland law allows the possession and transfer of PS90s that comply with Federal short-barreled rifle regulations (approved Form 1) as well as have a barrel length of less than 16 inches so as to comply with Maryland Handgun regulations. Therefore, upon approval of my Form 1 application, I will be compliant with both Federal and Maryland State law.


    - - - - - -

    Even after all that, the ATF came back and said they would only approve the SBR if the overall length could be 29." That is why I had the stock custom made. It is currently the only way to legally have a PS90 SBR in Maryland, as far as I can tell. The ATF acknowledged that the Maryland law is confusing, but said that short of a letter from the Maryland Attorney General on the issue (good luck with that), they could not approve an SBR in Maryland with an OAL less than 29."

    Once I amended the Form 1 to show it would be 29" OAL with the new stock, the ATF approved the Form 1. My SBR PS90 now satisfies both Maryland law and federal law.

    I apologize for the length of my post, but there were a lot of details to get in there. Hopefully it all makes sense.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    You were trying to get it approved as an SBR. And BATF follows MSP "rules" that it has to be 29"

    If it is sold as a pistol, not SBR, then there is no minimum length.

    Hmm, I wonder if a PS90 that was sold and approved (Not Disapproved) by MSP can have the short barrel installed without SBR paperwork, as it is not a rifle.

    You can believe what you want to believe, but it has been done. It was even mentioned in a thread on MDS.

    I am not going to show you a copy of the 77r, for obvious reasons. But I know it was done, and have held the firearm.

    BTW, there are buttstock extensions that take about 1 minute to install that make the PS90 with long barrel, MD legal as a rifle.

    http://damageindustriesllc.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=142_70
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,860
    Rockville, MD
    If it is sold as a pistol, not SBR, then there is no minimum length.

    Hmm, I wonder if a PS90 that was sold and approved (Not Disapproved) by MSP can have the short barrel installed without SBR paperwork, as it is not a rifle.

    You can believe what you want to believe, but it has been done. It was even mentioned in a thread on MDS.

    I am not going to show you a copy of the 77r, for obvious reasons. But I know it was done, and have held the firearm.
    I recall that thread, now that you bring it up. You would be going to federal jail if you tried to put a short barrel on a PS90 without a stamp, regardless of what the state of MD would do. And, bluntly, I think you'd be fined or going to jail in MD if you sold a factory PS90 with a 16" barrel to someone and the MSP noticed you did so. It has a stock. It has a 16"barrel. It's a rifle.

    Anybody can slip something past the MSP once. That doesn't make it precedent, that makes it "lucky". The irony here is that I actually agree the MSP is misinterpreting the law, and that the OAL test shouldn't apply to SBRs, and that they should have to have a 77r to transfer. But that is just not how the state is currently interpreting things.
     

    ivzarleinad

    Member
    Jun 6, 2017
    19
    I recall that thread, now that you bring it up. You would be going to federal jail if you tried to put a short barrel on a PS90 without a stamp, regardless of what the state of MD would do. And, bluntly, I think you'd be fined or going to jail in MD if you sold a factory PS90 with a 16" barrel to someone and the MSP noticed you did so. It has a stock. It has a 16"barrel. It's a rifle.

    Anybody can slip something past the MSP once. That doesn't make it precedent, that makes it "lucky". The irony here is that I actually agree the MSP is misinterpreting the law, and that the OAL test shouldn't apply to SBRs, and that they should have to have a 77r to transfer. But that is just not how the state is currently interpreting things.

    Well spoken. I also agree that the interpretation of Maryland law is wrong, but it is the MSP who enforce the law so we need to follow their interpretation. Even if you got the 77r approved, if it is truly a "handgun" under Maryland law and you are also claiming it is a "handgun" under Federal law, you would then not be able to shoulder it legally. Since it is impossible to remove the stock altogether and have the firearm function, it would always have a stock and be considered by the ATF to be an SBR with or without Form 1 approval (obviously it needs Form 1 approval to be legal). The ATF knows all this and they will not approve any SBR unless it also meets Maryland's OAL requirements. Believe me, I tried.

    The good news in all this is, that is is still possible to have a regular PS90 with a buttplate extension, as Pinecone mentioned, and Nick at Promoted Pawn (who made my custom underfolder) also sells buttplate extensions which I highly recommend. http://www.promotedpawn.com/ps90products/carbon-fiber-butt-plate

    He will also be putting the custom underfolder up on his website soon at a much lower price than I had to pay (because I paid for the design etc. too) but you can also email him and ask for that if you guys want to SBR your PS90s in Maryland too.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    As long as the PS90 sold as a handgun has the 16 inch barrel on it, you can shoulder it, as it is not an SBR.

    Only if you put the short barrel on it and shouldered it.

    And if a stock extension is put on, it make it a MD legal rifle, and then taken off, it does back to being a pistol. As it started as a pistol. :)

    If this one were to be sold, it would have to be sold with a 77r, as it is a handgun.

    Sometimes MSP shoots itself in its foot.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,773
    Member ivzarlienad who asked about "IP" is a June 2017 member, not a '13'er.

    BUT it has been a while since the acronym list started by SNI has been brought up. Perhaps a less Luddite person could do a link to it?
     

    carpecervisi

    Active Member
    Feb 10, 2008
    240
    Frederick, MD
    Damn you ivzarleinad! Your post finally made me get off the fence and pick up a PS90. Got a pretty good one off GunBroker and have contacted Nick about getting a stock.

    Thanks man.
    -chad

    PS- If anyone is looking for a used PS90, Nicole at TMG has an FDE in great shape plus several hundred rounds of ammo at a great price. Wish I would have known before picking mine up.
     

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