Trying to move SBR to Maryland

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  • Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    Good evening all!

    I just received a disapproved Form20 regarding an SBR move from Florida to join me at my current duty station here at PAX River following my recent PCS. The reason they sited was that the Anderson AM-15 lower it's built on has been ruled a copy of an AR15 so is on the banned assault long guns or copycat weapons list.

    Can anyone explain this craziness and possibly provide some suggestions for what angle I can take to appeal?
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    Actually, I think I just figured out what I did wrong... The manufacturer and model isn't an Anderson AM-15 anymore, it's an SBR made by my Trust...

    Time to resubmit.

    Does that sound right to everyone?
     

    dontpanic

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 7, 2013
    6,625
    Timonium
    Is OAL > 29". That could be your issue. Centerfire semiauto SBRs <29" are assault long guns and no longer allowed in MD.

    Unless it was grandfathered before Oct 1, 2013

    BTW welcome to MD Shooters
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    Yeah, it comes in at 29.5. I made sure to read up on the law and have been surfing MDshooters for the issues everyone has been having. The reason sited was my *incorrect* manufacturer me thinks. I'll tell everyone what I hear in another 6 weeks
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    It looks like the gents at Engage Armament have already dealt with this exact issue! I sent them an email and Nate and Andrew both got in touch with me, and provided me with the response from the Maryland State Police (on their letter head) clarifying that SBRs are not covered by Maryland's convoluted ALG definitions.

    I'll call up the NFA office during business hours tomorrow to see if I need to resubmit, if they can send an approval, or if they dream up some other way to deny my request.
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    I talked to Mr Terry Whittington this morning about the mountain of gobbledygook coming out of Maryland that the NFA branch has to sift through. He was very helpful and was interested in a document stating in plane English that SBRs are being considered "pistols" and not subject to ALG restrictions per the state police.

    He asked for me to just shoot all my documentation over to him again (so to speak) in an email and he'd enter it electronically for me after reviewing the supporting documents.

    It was my first call into the ATF hotline and I was expecting to talk to a soulless bureaucrat. I was surprised to find a dude frustrated with the craziness of the state on the other end of the line.

    I feel sorry for you guys that have to deal with all this for longer than a 2 year tour. Hopefully they overturn SB281 now that it's a red state!
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Unfortunately in MD, the MSP have authority for interpretating gun statutes. They say an SBR is both a handgun and a rifle, though not an ALG. Since it's defined in a statute as a rifle as well, MSP decided the copycat previsions for an assault weapon (not an ALG) also apply, so OAL < 29" is prohibited.

    Technically an SBR is not an ALG, but MSP says it's an assault weapon and therefore subject to copycat provisions for assault weapons.

    IANAL but I'm not sure even a lawyer can figure this BS out.
     
    Last edited:

    NateIU10

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2009
    4,587
    Southport, CT
    I talked to Mr Terry Whittington this morning about the mountain of gobbledygook coming out of Maryland that the NFA branch has to sift through. He was very helpful and was interested in a document stating in plane English that SBRs are being considered "pistols" and not subject to ALG restrictions per the state police.

    He asked for me to just shoot all my documentation over to him again (so to speak) in an email and he'd enter it electronically for me after reviewing the supporting documents.

    It was my first call into the ATF hotline and I was expecting to talk to a soulless bureaucrat. I was surprised to find a dude frustrated with the craziness of the state on the other end of the line.

    I feel sorry for you guys that have to deal with all this for longer than a 2 year tour. Hopefully they overturn SB281 now that it's a red state!

    Let me know what ends up happening, glad the letter may have helped.
     

    bobthefisher

    Durka ninja
    Aug 18, 2010
    1,214
    Definitely not where you are!
    Next time I'm in Martinsburg WV I'm going to tape the law to the windows of the ATF!

    I'm starting to wonder if no one talks to one another in the NFA branch. Don't they have at least a break room where they bitch about this stuff?!?!?!?
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Good luck with that. Have you seen the NFA Branch? It is surrounded by a screened security fence and sentry towers. Looks like a prison complex. The only sign says PLANT ENTRANCE. It's pretty obvious they don't want anyone knowing what's going on inside besides utter confusion.

    I marvel at the lack of communication every time a new examiner takes over the MD area. It's like starting over as far as their knowledge of MD law.
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    I can only imagine the direction they are getting. I'm kind of surprised the office is still running, particularly as well as they are and getting better, instead of just marking everything as received, taking our money, and sitting on the forms indefinitely.

    Speaking of which, we've passed close of business time and I haven't gotten an electronic approval or denial. I did send an email to an incorrect @atf.gov email to make sure their mailer daemon reflects invalid email addresses, so I'm sure he got the info and is passing it up the chain for consideration.

    I've been perusing the NFA forum and it looks like there are A LOT of people that have had this same issue. An actual official notice clarifying that freedom-loving 'Mericans are in fact allowed to have SBRs in Maryland [the Free State] is doing one of two things. It's either causing expressions of joy and relief for ATF approval agents, now having actual legal and plain-English guidance instead of having the interpret the mystical tea leaves of SB281; or it has started a firestorm of hate and discontent in a senior office, as now they have to divine some new layer of administrata to make it difficult for us again. Or both I guess
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    Argh, I called in asking for an update on my Form 20 and found out my resubmission wasn't being processed because I hadn't submitted a fresh form (I had submitted a scan of the denied form with the supplemental information for review). I haven't called for an update on my update yet.

    In any case, I asked for an update 2 weeks later and got that passive response. I know the gents working at the reviewing office are busy, but an email response that I had submitted an "incomplete package" after being asked for a quick email would have been nice.

    On a side note, while my investigator seemed very helpful, the initial person I got on the line led me on a confusing 5 minute tangent before finally getting to "ummm, I'm just going to forward you to your investigator." There definitely seems to be an unofficial memo floating around regarding the general illegality of SBRs in Maryland, and someone on the line claiming otherwise was blowing their mind.

    I'm starting to think all you guys with your toys are just making up their existence to make me jealous; or I may be the first person in history to try to move their SBR to "The Free State."
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    It looks like the gents at Engage Armament have already dealt with this exact issue! I sent them an email and Nate and Andrew both got in touch with me, and provided me with the response from the Maryland State Police (on their letter head) clarifying that SBRs are not covered by Maryland's convoluted ALG definitions.

    I'll call up the NFA office during business hours tomorrow to see if I need to resubmit, if they can send an approval, or if they dream up some other way to deny my request.

    But the MD copycat provisions for assault weapons still applies. So if your SBR < 29" it may be rejected, even if you owned the SBR before 10-1-13 and it was registered in the NFA NFRTR database. The fact that it was already registered in the NFA database doesn't seem to matter to BATFE.

    Good luck.
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    The dimensions and lack of a grenade/flare launcher are accounted for. I'm just working through the secret resistance now.

    Just called to see if the re-re-submission is pending yet and it's not in the system. Going to the post office to re-re-re-submit the analog way. I'll update again in a month or so ish.

    I also noticed a typo on my electronic re-submission... so that has been corrected and re-re-emailed. I guess I'll see which one processes first.
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    Yay update! yay? So the original examiner who said he was going to electronically update and process the 5320.20 for approval didn't. The paper form I sent in finally made it to processing (almost a month later now), and I got a call saying that my form doesn't match what they have on file for the SBR (referencing an old application that was denied, not the actual approved stamp).

    I was also told that from this point it could take 30 more days to approve.

    When did a form 20 start taking the same time to process as a form 1 or form 4??

    Is it possible to un-SBR a lower then re-form 1 it? Do you get a refund if you undo a tax stamp?
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,273
    SoMD / West PA
    Yay update! yay? So the original examiner who said he was going to electronically update and process the 5320.20 for approval didn't. The paper form I sent in finally made it to processing (almost a month later now), and I got a call saying that my form doesn't match what they have on file for the SBR (referencing an old application that was denied, not the actual approved stamp).

    I was also told that from this point it could take 30 more days to approve.

    When did a form 20 start taking the same time to process as a form 1 or form 4??

    Is it possible to un-SBR a lower then re-form 1 it? Do you get a refund if you undo a tax stamp?

    Yes,

    That will possibly mess you up, if you owned the SBR prior to 10/1/2013
     

    Tcap137

    Member
    Jan 9, 2015
    21
    You can ask them to remove it from the registry. Don't know the specifics of what you can do after removing it...though I can venture a guess that you will NOT receive a refund.

    On a related note that could spark some tangential forum discussion/flaming, if you remove your SBR from the registry, and the SBR was a form 1'ed pistol, does it become a pistol again? or can it no longer be a pistol since it had been built as a rifle at some point in its life? What if it was done in Maryland where an SBR is considered a pistol?
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,797
    Catonsville, MD
    ...
    Is it possible to un-SBR a lower then re-form 1 it? Do you get a refund if you undo a tax stamp?

    If you put a regular upper on it, its technically no longer a SBR. However in MD that means its not an assault long gun which is also banned. So not good there. You can remove the gun from the NFA (no refund) and then you would need to start over any do another form 1 and $200 to redo the SBR.

    There is no easy way around this that I see... sorry.
     

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