MD and MSP geting Heat from the FBI and ATF

Lou45 · Apr 7, 2013

teratos said:
A Right delayed is a Right denied. A little bird told me there may be something on the legal front regarding this issue.

Hhhmmm..............Your little birdie is probably my little birdie too. Well boys and girls, can you say "class action"?

-Z/28- said:
Background info to make the rest clear:

-Maryland law grants the Maryland State Police(MSP) 7 days to perform a background check for regulated firearms.

-After 7 days the law states the firearm may be released if there's no reply from MSP

-Federal law requires all FFLs to perform a NICS instant check for all purchases. They cannot release the firearm without a NICS approval number.

-For Maryland regulated firearms, MSP is the only NICS contact point the state allows. So MD dealers have to wait for the MSP paperwork to come back with the NICS # to release the firearm.

-The issue here lies in that the NICS checks for regulated firearms have to go through MSP

This ^^^^

Kman said:
I can't even begin to imagine the FBI or ATF would pretend to give a crap about MD citizens obtaining firearms.

Beings it's been brought up, I'll spill a coupla' beans. I heard rumor (not necessarily a reliable source) last summer/fall that ATF has been breathing down MSP's neck about a few issues where MSP L&R has been falling short. It was indicated back then (bear in mind that this is classified as RUMOR) that ATF would jump in and remove at least some, if not most, of the responsibilities of MSP L&R. This is the first time I've breathed (in this case, typed) a word about this. Supposedly ATF would be revamping the operation or removing the operation from MSP L&R if MSP didn't get their poop together by the first of this year. This pretty well sums up what I heard through the grapevine. Remember, I classified and still do classify this as RUMOR and RUMOR only, so don't construe any of the aforementioned as fact until if and when the above said actions occur.

Elynchjr23 · Apr 7, 2013

I sure hope your birdies are right!

plinkerton · Apr 8, 2013

Elynchjr23 said:
I sure hope your birdies are right!

If they are wrong there is plenty of CCI 22LR birdshot to be had .....

:lol2:

Gordnfreman · Apr 8, 2013

ATF 4473 provides for transfer without NICS

Form 4473
For Marylandistan, use "the appropriate state agency"

21a....date submitted MSP
21b....NICS notice highlighted (if provided)
21c....Delayed notice what is said below "the firearms may be transferred if state law permits" etc.
21d....notice highlighted
21e....notice the word "AFTER the firearm was transferred, the following response was etc. etc. from the appropriate agency.

I am no lawyer, but it appears to me that Federal law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS or "appropriate state transaction number".

FBI NCIS link
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
Read around the 8th paragraph down from the top, it addresses 4473 and the 3 day rule.

It appears to me, Md law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS as long as it has been 7 working days, and you have not purchased within 30 days, or are a collector.

It appears that if form 4473 is filled out properly, that Federal law allows transfer without NICS, and Maryland only prohibits transfer before 7 working days. THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY ON HOW I AM READING THIS!

What do you guy's think? How about the FFL's here, what do you say?

TheGoodSoldier · Apr 8, 2013

Oldcarjunkie said:
Its def deliberate, I bought a rifle on 2-9-13, my paperwork was finally sent a few days ago to the ffl AFTER he called because others who filled apps after me had been receiving theirs bck already.. However the paperwork that he showed me said they did the check on 3-19-13. So after they ran it, they still sat n my paperwork.

This might explain why I havn't gotten back my paperwork for my pistol which I bought 2-8-12. My shop is getting stuff back from the 10th and 11th but mine is still sitting around. That's rather infuriating....I need to start apartment shopping in VA. Never had a big reason to dislike MD until now.

Glock_Fireman · Apr 8, 2013

Lou45 said:
Hhhmmm..............Your little birdie is probably my little birdie too. Well boys and girls, can you say "class action"?

This ^^^^

Beings it's been brought up, I'll spill a coupla' beans. I heard rumor (not necessarily a reliable source) last summer/fall that ATF has been breathing down MSP's neck about a few issues where MSP L&R has been falling short. It was indicated back then (bear in mind that this is classified as RUMOR) that ATF would jump in and remove at least some, if not most, of the responsibilities of MSP L&R. This is the first time I've breathed (in this case, typed) a word about this. Supposedly ATF would be revamping the operation or removing the operation from MSP L&R if MSP didn't get their poop together by the first of this year. This pretty well sums up what I heard through the grapevine. Remember, I classified and still do classify this as RUMOR and RUMOR only, so don't construe any of the aforementioned as fact until if and when the above said actions occur.

I really hope that this is the case something needs to be done to the state police. The incompetent State Police need to have there privileges messed like the state is trying to do to our rights. :lol2:

erwos · Apr 8, 2013

I don't exactly understand how the FBI or BATFE can help us here.

MD state law forces regulated firearms dealers to be licensed by the state and comply with state law. What's the FBI or BATFE going to do, give dealers a pass from state laws? I don't think that's possible. If Maryland law says that the MSP is the POC for NICs for regulated guns, I don't see how that gets changed.

In fact, there's a chance they could make things far worse. If they cut off the MSP, that might wind up cutting off all regulated transfers in Maryland...

lx1x · Apr 8, 2013

erwos said:
I don't exactly understand how the FBI or BATFE can help us here.

MD state law forces regulated firearms dealers to be licensed by the state and comply with state law. What's the FBI or BATFE going to do, give dealers a pass from state laws? I don't think that's possible. If Maryland law says that the MSP is the POC for NICs for regulated guns, I don't see how that gets changed.

In fact, there's a chance they could make things far worse. If they cut off the MSP, that might wind up cutting off all regulated transfers in Maryland...

For the latter part.. = major lawsuit.. which can help us, I would think at least.

Tomcat · Apr 8, 2013

Lou45 said:
typed).....Supposedly ATF would be revamping the operation or removing the operation from MSP L&R if MSP didn't get their poop together by the first of this year.

So much for rumors, first of the year is long past, it's April already

bmelton · Apr 8, 2013

I think that the real fix here is to just start buying our regulated firearms from the secondary market (read: each other), handling the transfers at MSP Barracks, and releasing the firearms to the buyers after 7 days unless a 'disapproved' status comes back within that time.

What's personally killing me is that I feel like I need to buy the things I need to buy between now and October, but with the paperwork taking an average of 60 days, that increases the 'one gun a month' law to something more like 'one gun a quarter', and there aren't that many quarters between now and October.

Les Gawlik · Apr 8, 2013

erwos said:
I don't exactly understand how the FBI or BATFE can help us here.

Tell them to get the NICS number at the beginning of the vetting process, and not at the end. If they can get their act together in seven days with a denial or not denied letter, good for them. Otherwise, out the door.

mdshooter9090 · Apr 8, 2013

Lou45 said:
Hhhmmm..............Your little birdie is probably my little birdie too. Well boys and girls, can you say "class action"

This ^^^^

Beings it's been brought up, I'll spill a coupla' beans. I heard rumor (not necessarily a reliable source) last summer/fall that ATF has been breathing down MSP's neck about a few issues where MSP L&R has been falling short. It was indicated back then (bear in mind that this is classified as RUMOR) that ATF would jump in and remove at least some, if not most, of the responsibilities of MSP L&R. This is the first time I've breathed (in this case, typed) a word about this. Supposedly ATF would be revamping the operation or removing the operation from MSP L&R if MSP didn't get their poop together by the first of this year. This pretty well sums up what I heard through the grapevine. Remember, I classified and still do classify this as RUMOR and RUMOR only, so don't construe any of the aforementioned as fact until if and when the above said actions occur.

In all due respect your honor, I call BS.

You are likely being feed misinformation by Anti's.

It's like the Delegate, "boy, lots of people are pressuring me to Pass SB 281."

Mdshooter: "oh yeah why didn't they testify"

Conversation over

@@@@@@

BS alert!

There said it. Rumors, hehe, thats funny.

Klunatic · Apr 8, 2013

mdshooter9090 said:
In all due respect your honor, I call BS.

You are likely being feed misinformation by Anti's.

It's like the Delegate, "boy, lots of people are pressuring me to Pass SB 281."

Mdshooter: "oh yeah why didn't they testify"

Conversation over

@@@@@@

BS alert!

There said it. Rumors, hehe, thats funny.

Not BS, comes directly from several FFL's. MSP is on the hot seat and may soon not be the point of contact for NCIS number. ATF has also indicated that it is legal to transfer a firearm after 7 days without NCIS# provided you can prove you submitted the request to the proper agency (MSP in our case) and have not received a response in the 7 days. This would be a fax confirmation of the request for NCIS number to the MSP.

Klunatic · Apr 8, 2013

Gordnfreman said:
Form 4473
For Marylandistan, use "the appropriate state agency"

21a....date submitted MSP
21b....NICS notice highlighted (if provided)
21c....Delayed notice what is said below "the firearms may be transferred if state law permits" etc.
21d....notice highlighted
21e....notice the word "AFTER the firearm was transferred, the following response was etc. etc. from the appropriate agency.

I am no lawyer, but it appears to me that Federal law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS or "appropriate state transaction number".

FBI NCIS link
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
Read around the 8th paragraph down from the top, it addresses 4473 and the 3 day rule.

It appears to me, Md law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS as long as it has been 7 working days, and you have not purchased within 30 days, or are a collector.

It appears that if form 4473 is filled out properly, that Federal law allows transfer without NICS, and Maryland only prohibits transfer before 7 working days. THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY ON HOW I AM READING THIS!

What do you guy's think? How about the FFL's here, what do you say?

Call Andy at Engage he has your answer, or look here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=2323964#post2323964

2AHokie · Apr 8, 2013

Klunatic said:
Not BS, comes directly from several FFL's. MSP is on the hot seat and may soon not be the point of contact for NCIS number. ATF has also indicated that it is legal to transfer a firearm after 7 days without NCIS# provided you can prove you submitted the request to the proper agency (MSP in our case) and have not received a response in the 7 days. This would be a fax confirmation of the request for NCIS number to the MSP.

I got ripped repeatedly for making exactly this assertion in previous discussions.

Hopefully the ATF will put out an official communication that says so to settle the matter.

mxrider · Apr 8, 2013

Here's hoping Lou will be looking into providing transfers without NICS

I'd sure love to get my AR next weekend

Gordnfreman · Apr 8, 2013

Klunatic said:
Call Andy at Engage he has your answer, or look here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=2323964#post2323964

I read Andy's post, thats what got me started to actually read and research the actual documents.

As I see it, Federal and MD. law do allow for the transfer without a NICS number. If Maryland law prohibits the transfer without the NICS, I would like someone to please direct me to the actual written law.

If Federal and State law allows for the transfer without the NICS, why can't we all receive our guns?

mdshooter9090 · Apr 8, 2013

Klunatic said:
Not BS, comes directly from several FFL's. MSP is on the hot seat and may soon not be the point of contact for NCIS number. ATF has also indicated that it is legal to transfer a firearm after 7 days without NCIS# provided you can prove you submitted the request to the proper agency (MSP in our case) and have not received a response in the 7 days. This would be a fax confirmation of the request for NCIS number to the MSP.

Wow, someone wants me to do more work?

"I want my purchased product."

"Ok, Prove it!"

This is laughable, if not so stupid and sick.

And in all due respect I'm not attacking you but the notion of rumors and worse the burden of proof to make a purchase.

FFL purchase dialog:

"can I get permission to Video tape this hand gun purchase, so that in 7 days I can have proof that the MSP is delinquent?"

Sure.

"Ok, sign this release form since in MD it illegal with out written consent, shall we get it notarized?"

Well you get the point. It's just sick when the ATF and FBI have to intervene between a People and some Public Officials - if they even do it.

@@@@@@@

Maybe FBI can investigate Jason Mattera being chased down the street by Bloomberg's guards for simply asking a question.(on YouTube) It's from things like this that people can start to lose confidence in a honest system that is not Partisan.

Klunatic · Apr 8, 2013

Gordnfreman said:
I read Andy's post, thats what got me started to actually read and research the actual documents.

As I see it, Federal and MD. law do allow for the transfer without a NICS number. If Maryland law prohibits the transfer without the NICS, I would like someone to please direct me to the actual written law.

If Federal and State law allows for the transfer without the NICS, why can't we all receive our guns?

I believe supremacy clause applies, Federal law trumps MD law. Engage is testing the waters with transfers without the NCIS number.

TheYetti · Apr 8, 2013

L0gic said:
Search as lawsuits have been discussed. Plus what can you sue for? There is nothing that says they MUST get your paperwork approved in X number of days. There was a proposed amendment to SB281 to put a max 30 calendar days from submission but that got shot down. In this the law is on their side as it only states you can not receive your regulated any LESS than seven days.

Interesting enough, I was reading VA CCW laws and it says if you have not received a response (approved or denied) in 45 days or less they mail you a temporary permit which is valid until they do complete your form. If you are cleared then they send you the full permit. If you are denied, then you have to turn in your copy.

Ohio has or had something similar in that after 45 days the Sheriff has to give you the permit provided that there wasn't anything that would prevent you. It took less than 2 weeks to get my Ohio CCW.

MD and MSP geting Heat from the FBI and ATF

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