Question: MD Handgun Roster submission

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  • sundaz

    Member
    Sep 15, 2011
    83
    Can a citizen submit the Hangun Roster submission form or does it have to be a dealer? I bought an Uberti Cattleman El Patron SAA 45 colt from Buds and had it transferred into a MD FFL. I saw Cattleman on the roster and Buds said it was legal in Md. but once it arrived my FFL dealer said it was not legal because it didn't say Cattleman on the gun, and the roster didn't list the El Patron model, even though the website called it a Cattleman El Patron, so it had to be returned to Bud's. wondering if I can submit the form.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    yes, but the Roster Board may want to see the firearm. your FFL will have to do that.
    .
     

    Attachments

    • Handgun Roster Petition.pdf
      1.8 MB · Views: 289

    magnetic1

    Active Member
    Jun 21, 2013
    415
    Montgomery County
    So I take it something brand new like the CZ Shadow2 would have to be submitted by a FFL? It's a new variant on something already on the list but if they want an actual sample, a FFL has to produce the pistol?
     

    A1Uni

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 28, 2012
    4,842
    Yes, they almost always want the gun to examine and fire.

    If it is just an additional caliber, or a minor cosmetic change, they sometimes only require a petition, but a mechanical or roll-stamp change will require the gun.

    P.S.- Filing a petition is very simple, a 2-page, fill-in-the-blank form. It takes five minutes, if you type slowly.

    It is so easy, we don't even charge anything but the shipping cost to send the guns to MSP to do it.

    If in doubt, call Marlene Jenkins at MSP, (super nice lady) and she will tell if the gun needs to go, or just a petition.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,376
    Westminster USA
    Marlene's number
    .
     

    Attachments

    • marlene.JPG
      marlene.JPG
      7.3 KB · Views: 399

    Ghost40

    Active Member
    Apr 29, 2015
    216
    That happened to me when I ordered a Citadel 1911 9mm. Once arrived at the FFL he told me it would have to be added. My FFL took care of everything, took about 3 months total. Even though it was only a caliber addition they still wanted to see it.
     

    Minehog

    Member
    Jan 31, 2016
    5
    Middletown, MD
    Hey guys, as a follow up on the MD handgun roster question: Can I legally bring I (through an FFL) a pistol manufactured before 1985 but not on the Handgun Roster? I've been collecting small caliber Cold War pistols like FEG, and they are all over the place in terms of names and model numbers. I was considering submitting a request to add certain models, but if they were manufactured before 1985, does it matter? The language in the law is confusing. Any thoughts?
     

    vetogunban

    Active Member
    Apr 30, 2013
    269
    Brooklyn Park
    Is there a regular schedule (e.g., every 2 months) review meetings are done? Is there a website that shows what firearms are being considered/voted on for the next meeting?
     

    SPQM

    Active Member
    May 21, 2014
    302
    You think the MSP Handgun Roster is for our safety and to prevent criminals from having access to cheap Saturday Night Specials?

    Nope. It's to induce Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, and Frustration to anyone who likes to buy handguns, and likes to stray off the beaten path of "popular" guns.

    All By Design.

    It's also why the 2013 FSA "list of guns" exists -- to fragment the gun market so that you can't easily obtain what you want. MSP lets HBAR through only for one specific reason -- their masters know that if they banned every single 5.56 AR, there'd be hell to pay in a case, particularly since it's now "America's Gun".

    Hence them finding the "out" in that old "COLT HBAR SPORTER" exemption in FSA 2013.

    It enables MSP to avoid a serious lawsuit, while as a bonus, fragmenting the AR15 market in the DELMARPAVA area -- FFLs have to maintain separate stocks of HBAR AR-15s for sale in MD, and Maryland owners looking for AR15 parts online, have to stick to HBAR or "roll their own", instead of just buying cheap PSA kits for $299.

    Huge huge frustration.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,060
    You think the MSP Handgun Roster is for our safety and to prevent criminals from having access to cheap Saturday Night Specials?

    Nope. It's to induce Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, and Frustration to anyone who likes to buy handguns, and likes to stray off the beaten path of "popular" guns.

    All By Design.

    It's also why the 2013 FSA "list of guns" exists -- to fragment the gun market so that you can't easily obtain what you want. MSP lets HBAR through only for one specific reason -- their masters know that if they banned every single 5.56 AR, there'd be hell to pay in a case, particularly since it's now "America's Gun".

    Hence them finding the "out" in that old "COLT HBAR SPORTER" exemption in FSA 2013.

    It enables MSP to avoid a serious lawsuit, while as a bonus, fragmenting the AR15 market in the DELMARPAVA area -- FFLs have to maintain separate stocks of HBAR AR-15s for sale in MD, and Maryland owners looking for AR15 parts online, have to stick to HBAR or "roll their own", instead of just buying cheap PSA kits for $299.


    Huge huge frustration.

    Umm, you do realize that the HBAR was exempt from the regulated list starting back in 1989 when the first 39 items were made for the regulated rifle category? And that same exemption just simply carried over when they took the regulated rifles list and made it the banned rifles list.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,703
    Hey guys, as a follow up on the MD handgun roster question: Can I legally bring I (through an FFL) a pistol manufactured before 1985 but not on the Handgun Roster? I've been collecting small caliber Cold War pistols like FEG, and they are all over the place in terms of names and model numbers. I was considering submitting a request to add certain models, but if they were manufactured before 1985, does it matter? The language in the law is confusing. Any thoughts?

    Any made before 1985 are exempt from the roster, no need to submit.
     

    SPQM

    Active Member
    May 21, 2014
    302
    Umm, you do realize that the HBAR was exempt from the regulated list starting back in 1989 when the first 39 items were made for the regulated rifle category? And that same exemption just simply carried over when they took the regulated rifles list and made it the banned rifles list.

    DBLAS, AFAIK, they simply copied the regulated list from 1989 and changed it from "regulated" to BANNED, and MSP has been very wonky with their interpretations of that list in FSA 2013.

    For example:

    MSP has used the text "Bushmaster semi–auto rifle" which was intended to mean

    The Bushmaster Assault Rifle, also known as the Bushmaster First Generation, uses an AK-47 type gas system and was banned by name in the first phase of CA's AW ban (Roberti-Roos AW Control Act of 1989). It is pictured and described on page 21 of the AW Guide

    (pic Attached)

    To mean that all rifles marked "Bushmaster" are banned, even if said rifles marked "BUSHMASTER" use AR15 direct impingement gas systems and have no high % of interchangeable parts with the "Bushmaster Assault Rifle", per MSP's definition of what is a "clone".

    The text in FSA 2013 reads:

    Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle

    They specifically state "Colt Sporter HBAR Rifle", which by the same legal reasoning they used to ban everything named "Bushmaster", should mean that only AR15s with COLT Sporter HBAR rollmarks are legal in MD.

    Yet, on the MSP ban list they state:

    "Colt AR-15 model M4A1-SOCOM -- Not Banned -- Does not meet the definition of a copycat weapon or the definition of a copy of an enumerated weapon"

    And there's even a letter stating that it's not banned per another thread on this forum (see attached).

    On surface glance, it appears that MSP is dangerously schizophrenic, ignoring and rewriting law Or (misinterpreting it) on the fly.

    But when you think about it for a second, it starts to make sense, not in a strict legal sense, or even a strict gun control sense.

    What they're doing is basically a variant of what Washington State has been doing since I-594 banned private sales in Washington State.

    See, Washington state doesn't really actually ENFORCE I-594; i.e. charge people with violating I-594.

    Why?

    Because as long as nobody gets charged with violating I-594's statute, the courts keep ruling that nobody has standing, and keep dismissing lawsuits by the NRA, SAF, etc against I-594.

    I suspect that many of the same objectives/goals are in play in the Attorney General's Office and MSP upper headquarters -- they seek to manage FSA 2013 in a way so that multiple goals are accomplished:

    Goal A.

    That challenges to FSA 2013 don't arise, via leaving out escape valves -- e.g. them ruling that Polytech M14 are OK, since some parts have metric threads instead of SAE (so that hi power CMP shooters have options in .308), and reinterpreting the specific exemption for "Colt Sporter HBAR Rifle" to mean anything marked HBAR, plus the whole "caliber change = not a clone" reasoning they have, to avoid a mass decimation of the gun market in Maryland -- look at your store shelves -- 65% of everything (maybe an exaggeration, but not by much) is a AR-15 clone. This would in turn raise standing for a lawsuit against MSP for trying to destroy the gun market in MD. They don't want that to happen, so pretzel logic is employed.

    Goal B.

    Ensuring the gun market in Maryland is fragmented as much as possible, to drive out of business gun shows and FFLs (or make their life as difficult as possible).

    I have been to gun shows in Virginia (Chantilly), Pennsylvania (Gettysburg), and various ones in MD (Timonium) over the last few weeks; and the non-MD ones are much more lively.

    This is due to multiple issues:

    Handguns are one of the great cash-income generators for sellers at gun shows.

    In the space of one rifle, you can pack out about 6 handguns in cases.

    Figure a rifle sells for $1.1K, and a typical handgun about $370; that means if you have room for 5 rifles on a table, the cost breakdown is:

    30 x Handguns @ $370 = $11,100 in possible gross sales.
    or
    5 x rifles @ $1,100 = 5,500 in possible gross sales.

    Plus, being able to stock 30 units vs 5 units means you have a greater variety of models, increasing the probability that someone will buy a unit from your table, generating cash for that table.

    The Maryland Handgun Roster (muh saturday night specials!) means that dealers have to keep a list of exactly what is legal to sell in MD, and sort them out from their regular inventory if they do a MD gun show. Plus the 7 day waiting period for regulated weapons is a huge body blow as people can't buy the gun and go that same day, they have to pick it up at the dealer -- it's from 3 to 4 hours' drive possible maximum to any point in MD.

    This travel requirement (or having it shipped to a FFL near you) eliminates any price drop bonus found at the gun show, since TIME IS MONEY.

    The final derp in the mess is the HQL.

    Meanwhile, FSA 2013 distorts and affects the market for long guns, the highest profit margin guns are "tactically operating operationally" guns, since they can go for a markup. The dealers, as before, have to keep lists of what's good to go or not in Maryland, or have to keep special stock in hand just for MD gunshows.

    You're not going to stay in business as a brick and mortar shop selling traditional shotguns or bolt/lever action rifles nowadays, especially with the market so saturated with them:

    Remington 870 Shotgun: Introduced 1950; 10+ million sold/on the market.
    Remington 700 Rifle: Introduced 1962: 7.85+ million sold/on the market.
    Winchester 70 Rifle: Introduced 1936. Tons on market

    Etc.

    You get the idea.

    There's only so many 18 year olds coming of age each year to support sales of these traditional weapons, or people who have lost/broken their older weapons.

    By making "tactical" weapons subject to so many lookups, checks, etc they hope to keep out of state FFLs from gun shows; by making the headache of dealing with MD gun laws too great for the monetary reward from the gun shows.

    And it's working.

    Also working is the MD "Anti-Saturday Night Special Rule".

    You'll note that "Sundaz", the original poster for this thread, tried to buy a Uberti Cattleman El Patron Single Action Army Revolver in .45 Colt from Bud's gun shop.

    Sundaz checked the Roster here:

    http://dlslibrary.state.md.us/publications/exec/mdsp/ps5-405(a)(2)_2014(1).pdf

    and saw:

    Aldo Uberti & Co.:
    Cattleman (.22LR, .22MAG, .357MAG, .38SP, 44-40 and .45LC)


    Looking at Uberti's website:

    https://www.uberti-usa.com/1873-cattleman-el-patron-revolver

    Lightning fast and reliable, shot after shot, you can depend on Uberti’s hand-tuned Cattleman model. In the world of single-action revolvers, it is truly the boss, or El Patrón, as the Vaqueros of the Old West would say.

    Basically, it's the fancy word for "match grade" Cattleman revolvers.

    But when it arrived, nope nope nope.

    No "Cattleman" roll mark on gun, and no mention of "El Patron" on Roster, so...

    Gun has to go back to Buds, and the OP has to hand-submit a request for MSP to "investigate" the gun and verify that it's not a "saturday night special", before he can get it.

    Link

    House Bill 1131 preamble:

    WHEREAS, Certain handguns generally include several of the following characteristics: easily concealable, ballistically inaccurate, relatively light in weight, of low quality and manufacture, unreliable as to safety, and of low caliber; and

    I'm sure a gun with a MSRP of $609 is of low quality and manufacture.

    The reason the FFL sent the gun back to Bud's despite an obvious internet search revealing that it's merely a match grade version of the Cattleman, was because of the penalties in the Handgun Roster Law:

    (2) A person who sells or offers to sell a handgun in violation of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to a fine not exceeding $2,500 for each violation.

    Do you want to be the test case? Many people don't want to be, hence FFL's across the region "fail-safing" when it comes to Maryland Residents.

    Again, it's not about saving lives. It's never been. What it is about is about inflicting as much damage and frustration on the shooting sports as possible.

    Why?

    Because the shooting sports form one of the few solid fulcrums of power that Conservatives have in this country.

    They want to make it so frustrating to get anything that people simply give up in frustration; and thus the amount of people joining the shooting sports declines, reducing conservative political power about 15-20 years down the road.
     

    Attachments

    • BushmasterRifle.jpg
      BushmasterRifle.jpg
      57.9 KB · Views: 126
    • Colt AR-15 Model M4A1-SOCOM.pdf
      276.9 KB · Views: 63
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