NFA Experts Needed!

Pmbspyder · Apr 4, 2016

So I've been pondering how to sbr my reverse stretch mp5.

Here's the question: can I submit a form 1 and list the overall length as 29" without the parts to actually get it there? The idea would be to keep it as a pistol when in MD, but convert it to an sbr when out of state and not subject to the 29" law (with filing 5320.20 of course).

The meat and potatoes:

1) file form 1 for 29"
2) keep gun as pistol in MD, but own parts to convert to sbr (these parts would not make it 29")
3) convert to sbr when over state lines (oal probably around 24")
4) convert back to pistol when bringing back to md

That's the gist. Any of this kosher, or have I listed 15 arbitrary laws I'd be breaking because of 5 inches of barrel?

Obviously I would talk to a lawyer before actually doing any of this, but if this is an easy "no way" then I'll just have to sbr it when I move in 20 years. :sad20:

fred333 · Apr 4, 2016

Pmbspyder said:
can I submit a form 1 and list the overall length as 29" without the parts to actually get it there?

The short answer is no. I'm not a lawyer either, but I wouldn't submit your Form 1 until/unless you've got the parts required to meet the specs on the form submission. The ATF, because Maryland mandates a 29" OAL minimum, will likely reject it.

I was in the same position and ended up getting a collapsible, AR-style stock to keep for use in Maryland, which is what I based the Form 1 specs on (it gave me >29" OAL with the stock extended), and using the OEM HK collapsible stock when shooting outside the state (don't forget to file your 5320.20 before taking your SBR out of the state).

Wayne1one · Apr 4, 2016

I think it's fine, just seems sketchy, but a lot of people do forms without knowing exact lengths or even possesing the parts to convert their firearms to SBRs.

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dontpanic · Apr 4, 2016

You don't need anything but the receiver when you file your form 1. After you get your stamp, you do not ever need to build your SBR.

The ATF does not ask how you get to your OAL, just what your overall length is.

As long as you do not break the law in either state and file your form 20, your idea will work just fine.

SneakySh0rty · Apr 4, 2016

dontpanic said:
You don't need anything but the receiver when you file your form 1. After you get your stamp, you do not ever need to build your SBR.

The ATF does not ask how you get to your OAL, just what your overall length is.

As long as you do not break the law in either state and file your form 20, your idea will work just fine.

That is exactly how i feel.

Pmbspyder · Apr 4, 2016

Hmm interesting, thanks for the replies guys.

I guess the only real catch here would be having the pistol and stock parts that do not add to 29" in the same place. I don't believe there is "constructive intent" written into FSA 2013 though, so if I never built a rifle to less than 29" while in the state of MD I should be fine. It wouldn't be illegal as per BATFE either, as the pistol would be registered so I'm allowed to have stock parts on hand. Sound about right?

Fred333- appreciate the sentiment, but I have a reverse stretch, which will never get to 29" no matter what I throw on it...

dontpanic · Apr 5, 2016

How could there be "constructive intent". It is an approved SBR.

pwoolford · Apr 5, 2016

dontpanic said:
You don't need anything but the receiver when you file your form 1. After you get your stamp, you do not ever need to build your SBR.

The ATF does not ask how you get to your OAL, just what your overall length is.

As long as you do not break the law in either state and file your form 20, your idea will work just fine.

The whole insane "constructive intent" idea is a good reason NOT to have the parts laying around until your stamp comes back.

dontpanic said:
How could there be "constructive intent". It is an approved SBR.

bobthefisher · Apr 5, 2016

I would still have some crazy way to get it to 29 inches, even if you actually never shoot it that way in MD. For instance get an AR buffer conversion and screw a stupid pipe at the end. I know that sounds absolutely crazy, but at least you have some way of getting it to the "original" configuration as stated on the Form 1.

stringer bell · Apr 5, 2016

dontpanic said:
You don't need anything but the receiver when you file your form 1. After you get your stamp, you do not ever need to build your SBR.

The ATF does not ask how you get to your OAL, just what your overall length is.

As long as you do not break the law in either state and file your form 20, your idea will work just fine.

your fine. the ATF gives zero's ****s about the actual OAL and barrel length of a particular weapon as long as it is in compliance with state regs. weapon configurations, especially NFA stuff changes all the time.

and another thing, if its a pre FSA pistol, length doesn't matter anyway, submit form 1, enter 29 inch OAL and be done with it

Pmbspyder · Apr 5, 2016

So it seems from this that it should be legal to submit a form 1 and only convert to an under 29" sbr and back out of state. Anything I'm missing?

GLOCK813 · Apr 5, 2016

How about an ATF Form 5320.20 when you take out of state could be a pain unless you go to same place all the time.

Ports · Apr 5, 2016

I think you're nuts to mess with this. You are filing for an SBR but will never convert to an SBR in the location where it is registered. And will only create the SBR when you are out of your home State.

I'd tread very carefully and maybe actually talk to an NFA attorney instead of listening to a bunch of strangers on-line.

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stringer bell · Apr 6, 2016

Dude, the atf does not care what temporary configuration your sbr may or not be in, only that it can be converted to the length at some point.

Your way overthinking this

erwos · Apr 6, 2016

Ports said:
I think you're nuts to mess with this. You are filing for an SBR but will never convert to an SBR in the location where it is registered. And will only create the SBR when you are out of your home State.

This is an extremely good point. You do need permission to create the SBR outside of the state you "filed in", IIRC - research how some people in WA got around the ban on manufacturing SBRs in that state by manufacturing in OR. They had to jump through some hoops in terms of paperwork. And eventually, the BATFE cut them off.

outrider58 · Apr 6, 2016

dontpanic said:
You don't need anything but the receiver when you file your form 1. After you get your stamp, you do not ever need to build your SBR.

The ATF does not ask how you get to your OAL, just what your overall length is.

As long as you do not break the law in either state and file your form 20, your idea will work just fine.

I'm going with this too.

Pmbspyder · Apr 6, 2016

erwos said:
This is an extremely good point. You do need permission to create the SBR outside of the state you "filed in", IIRC - research how some people in WA got around the ban on manufacturing SBRs in that state by manufacturing in OR. They had to jump through some hoops in terms of paperwork. And eventually, the BATFE cut them off.

Well if I were to actually do it, I would buy some pipe and modify a stock to make it a bizarre 29" sbr while in state. Last I checked, there's nothing that says once I have that sbr over state lines I can't adjust length.

I don't think this is as big an issue as some think. Adjusting my original question, I would just take my awkwardly long sbr over state lines and adjust the length, then make it MD compliant before I come back. Does that ruffle fewer feathers here?

And yes, I would consult a lawyer before any of this, but there are some experienced people here who's opinions I value and enjoy soliciting.

fred333 · Apr 6, 2016

Pmbspyder said:
Adjusting my original question, I would just take my awkwardly long sbr over state lines and adjust the length, then make it MD compliant before I come back. Does that ruffle fewer feathers here?

See post 2.

Pmbspyder · Apr 6, 2016

fred333 said:
See post 2.

I checked that out, but I'll have to get extra creative as I have a reverse stretch...

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/com...retch-k-style-9mm-pistol-detail.html?Itemid=0

fred333 · Apr 6, 2016

Pmbspyder said:
I checked that out, but I'll have to get extra creative as I have a reverse stretch...

I was responding to your question about having two stock options—one for use in the USA and one for use here.

As to the 29" OAL conundrum with a short '5, you just need some type of stock extension or [permanently affixed] barrel extension (or both).
Welcome to the Kindergarten State, where all the subjects're treated like two year-olds....by two year-old commies....er, I mean mommies....er, commies.....er.....they change so often that you can never be certain what we're dealing with??

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