Whats the word on the saiga 12

mudskipper · Apr 6, 2011

These will start getting built domestically within a year if the import ban is thrown down. All someone needs to do is strike a deal with Izmash or whoever for parts kits and barrel importation and the receivers will get stamped, folded and assembled here.

Probably even a better deal for Izmash since they can save $$$ on assembly and receivers, and just focus on parts (for the export versions).

As far as domestic manufacture, they (Feds) may go for a DD declaration, but that will take a while to put in effect, and many more 1,000's of Saigas will produced in the meantime.

ericoak · Apr 6, 2011

mudskipper said:
These will start getting built domestically within a year if the import ban is thrown down. All someone needs to do is strike a deal with Izmash or whoever for parts kits and barrel importation and the receivers will get stamped, folded and assembled here.

Probably even a better deal for Izmash since they can save $$$ on assembly and receivers, and just focus on parts (for the export versions).

As far as domestic manufacture, they (Feds) may go for a DD declaration, but that will take a while to put in effect, and many more 1,000's of Saigas will produced in the meantime.

Why would a company take that risk if they could pump out a 1,000 s12s? Doubt it would be worthwhile

Inigoes · Apr 6, 2011

Seen S-12, and a couple of S-410s over at NoVA Armament this afternoon

IlikeNFA · Apr 6, 2011

These will start getting built domestically within a year if the import ban is thrown down. All someone needs to do is strike a deal with Izmash or whoever for parts kits and barrel importation and the receivers will get stamped, folded and assembled here.

Probably even a better deal for Izmash since they can save $$$ on assembly and receivers, and just focus on parts (for the export versions).

As far as domestic manufacture, they (Feds) may go for a DD declaration, but that will take a while to put in effect, and many more 1,000's of Saigas will produced in the meantime.

I think this is very unlikely. Even if it were to happen, the costs would likely double overnight. No way in blue hell am I paying 1k+ for a bone stock S-12. Id say the DD is more likely to happen than this...

Kingjamez · Apr 6, 2011

IlikeNFA said:
I think this is very unlikely. Even if it were to happen, the costs would likely double overnight. No way in blue hell am I paying 1k+ for a bone stock S-12. Id say the DD is more likely to happen than this...

If it were manufactured in the U.S., it wouldn't have to be a bone stock S12. It could have all of the EB(S) features. So yep, it would probably cost $1k+ but it wouldn't need converting.

FIREHAWK · Apr 8, 2011

im damn glad i was on the forum that sunday when the announcement was first made. i jumped from the computer and headed to "the gun shop" for one of the last >$500 S12's available. i had to wait a couple weeks but so far my patience has pretty much doubled in value

and she's still unfired

HappyCamper · Apr 8, 2011

hole punch said:
OMG I'm in LOVE!
Red Jacket Firearms Russian Red Classic Style Saiga 12 Shotgun

It's all fun and games until you see the $1500 price tag.

Don't get me wrong, it looks great. But dang. $1500.

Even after the scare started, I found a converted S12 for just over $800 on GB.

ericoak · Apr 8, 2011

HappyCamper said:
It's all fun and games until you see the $1500 price tag.

Don't get me wrong, it looks great. But dang. $1500.

Even after the scare started, I found a converted S12 for just over $800 on GB.

Yea but your s12 wasn't converted by a guy who proudly treats his workers like shit on camera!

JohnnyBmore · Apr 8, 2011

hole punch said:
OMG I'm in LOVE!
Red Jacket Firearms Russian Red Classic Style Saiga 12 Shotgun

Yep I got to shoot the owner of Atlantic's RJ s12 (He has that same style for himself ) .. shot great as expected but the Nice wood & look of this beauty is outstanding.

ericoak · Apr 8, 2011

JohnnyBmore said:
Yep I got to shoot the owner of Atlantic's RJ s12 (He has that same style for himself ) .. shot great as expected but the Nice wood & look of this beauty is outstanding.

The wood and the front sight looks nice.

Infidel · Apr 8, 2011

IMHO what has got the ATF all hot and bothered is the fact that once converted, and used with a large capacity box or drum magazine, there is almost no difference between our Saiga 12's and the USAS 12, or the Cobray Streetsweeper.

Sadly we may very well be seeing the last of the saiga 12 imports.

As a matter of fact, about 3 years ago there was a .22 rifle that we were interested in (the name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure one of the members would be able to refresh my memory), It had been approved by the ATF, and quite a few gun enthusiasts purchased them. Then a few months later the ATF revoked their approval and declared them illegal.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual".
Thomas Jefferson

FIREHAWK · Apr 9, 2011

Infidel said:
IMHO what has got the ATF all hot and bothered is the fact that once converted, and used with a large capacity box or drum magazine, there is almost no difference between our Saiga 12's and the USAS 12, or the Cobray Streetsweeper.

Sadly we may very well be seeing the last of the saiga 12 imports.

As a matter of fact, about 3 years ago there was a .22 rifle that we were interested in (the name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure one of the members would be able to refresh my memory), It had been approved by the ATF, and quite a few gun enthusiasts purchased them. Then a few months later the ATF revoked their approval and declared them illegal.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual".
Thomas Jefferson

the berretta neos carbine kit? i remember they offered a stock and barrell extension to make the neos pistol a rifle.

mudskipper · Apr 9, 2011

ericoak said:
Why would a company take that risk if they could pump out a 1,000 s12s? Doubt it would be worthwhile

Risk? Maybe, depending on how you look at it, but also a sizeable opportunity...

One set of Russian stamping dies (not being used at Izmash anymore since the factory is closed) for the receiver and couple hundred parts kits at a time. Trunions, bolts, gas system parts and barrels. Two or three guys in a reasonably equiped metal shop could build a hundred a month or more. You could probably work out a lease deal for the dies and the shop, too, so you wouldn't need a huge start-up capital nut. Gordon Ingram didn't have a big operation when he got started, nor did any of the other shops that built Macs/M-11's afterwards...

If they could keep the pricepoint at $600 or less, they could do very well with a low overhead operation like that. And that's for a cold-start up operation.

A company like Ohio Ordinance Works or even those nuts at Red Jacket, with tooling already in place, could start domestic production almost immediately.

As far as the risk - yeah, BATFE could declare it a DD. But let's examine that for a minute. We're not talking about a Streetsweeper/Striker 12/USAS12 here. Those were very low production guns - only a couple thousand total. Saigas are far more common. BATFE might not be too keen on introducing tens of thousand more people to the NFA world - especially for free, since a DD registration would be tax exempt for existing guns. So they would have to pay for all that new paperwork processing with their budget, and agency budgets will not be growing any time soon. So a DD declaration would be unlikely. And even if it was delcared a DD - that would NOT keep people from buying it. Look at all the other NFA toys that people pony up $200 for.

Infidel · Apr 9, 2011

FIREHAWK said:
the berretta neos carbine kit? i remember they offered a stock and barrell extension to make the neos pistol a rifle.

Thanks for the input Firehawk, but I don't think that was it!
I wish Scarcqb would wake up and take notice. The two of us were actually planning to purchase that rifle when the ATF s#@* all over it.

FIREHAWK · Apr 9, 2011

Infidel said:
Thanks for the input Firehawk, but I don't think that was it!
I wish Scarcqb would wake up and take notice. The two of us were actually planning to purchase that rifle when the ATF s#@* all over it.

well now mine sounds a lil gay

was it the atkins accelerator?

Elite84 · Apr 9, 2011

Well I am not sure whats going to happend with the S12s, but just to be safe I bought one. Either way its a I wanted one. My spas 12 needed a playmate...my evil twins.

SCARCQB · Apr 9, 2011

I'm not into shotguns and the drum fed saiga12's are just too bulky for me. I would take a n HK / Benelli M4 over the S-12 anyday.

aquaman · Apr 9, 2011

mudskipper said:
Risk? Maybe, depending on how you look at it, but also a sizeable opportunity...

One set of Russian stamping dies (not being used at Izmash anymore since the factory is closed) for the receiver and couple hundred parts kits at a time. Trunions, bolts, gas system parts and barrels. Two or three guys in a reasonably equiped metal shop could build a hundred a month or more. You could probably work out a lease deal for the dies and the shop, too, so you wouldn't need a huge start-up capital nut. Gordon Ingram didn't have a big operation when he got started, nor did any of the other shops that built Macs/M-11's afterwards...

If they could keep the pricepoint at $600 or less, they could do very well with a low overhead operation like that. And that's for a cold-start up operation.

A company like Ohio Ordinance Works or even those nuts at Red Jacket, with tooling already in place, could start domestic production almost immediately.

As far as the risk - yeah, BATFE could declare it a DD. But let's examine that for a minute. We're not talking about a Streetsweeper/Striker 12/USAS12 here. Those were very low production guns - only a couple thousand total. Saigas are far more common. BATFE might not be too keen on introducing tens of thousand more people to the NFA world - especially for free, since a DD registration would be tax exempt for existing guns. So they would have to pay for all that new paperwork processing with their budget, and agency budgets will not be growing any time soon. So a DD declaration would be unlikely. And even if it was delcared a DD - that would NOT keep people from buying it. Look at all the other NFA toys that people pony up $200 for.

I heard they simply moved factories to another plant.

this is about the problems they have been having and bankruptcy, you can run it through a translator http://www.lenta.ru/news/2010/12/16/kalashnikovs/

I would post all of it but some Russian lawyer might sue us. ha

Infidel · Apr 9, 2011

FIREHAWK said:
well now mine sounds a lil gay was it the atkins accelerator?

Firehawk, that's exactly what it was called, and you are right, it does sound like something you would find at a "toy' store!! :bowdown:

h2u · Apr 9, 2011

Infidel said:
Firehawk, that's exactly what it was called, and you are right, it does sound like something you would find at a "toy' store!!

Just an OT FYI- Mr. Atkins posts on this forum occasionally :thumbsup:

Whats the word on the saiga 12

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