12 gauge, 20 gauge, or .410 for home defense?

I want to take a step back. I think mostly everyone is missing the point. If she is unwilling to learn or practice, she has no place being around firearms. Untrained she is a hazard to herself and family. Owning a firearm is a great responsibility.

With that said, shotguns are not the quintessential home defense tool that people think they are. Much of that is based on bad information, urban legend, and bad tv. I will never stop someone from buying a shotgun (I am mildly addicted to shotguns), but please understand how they work.

A few things to try and think about. How long does it take you to fully load up your tube? 3 gunners are great, but only because they spend hours practicing. Now think about someone scared, heart racing, in the dark unfamiliar stuffing the tube. How long will it take to load? Will she try to stuff shells in backward or without the chamber closed?

Also, shot doesn't spread as big as people think it does. Only takes a trip to a skeet range to learn that lesson. Best case, a shot pattern is somewhere between the size of a baseball and a softball after heading down an average hallway. That leaves plenty of room to miss, especially if the shotgun is not properly pointed from the shoulder.

Lastly, walk out a bedroom in your house into a hallway holding a shotgun in a position that it can be quickly fired. How much of the barrel came out before you could see a target? Probably much more than you thought. Could a hiding intruder grab it away from you?

This is all food for thought, but most specifically reasons why people need to practice, and take owning a firearm seriously.

Selene said:

I want to take a step back. I think mostly everyone is missing the point. If she is unwilling to learn or practice, she has no place being around firearms. Untrained she is a hazard to herself and family. Owning a firearm is a great responsibility.

With that said, shotguns are not the quintessential home defense tool that people think they are. Much of that is based on bad information, urban legend, and bad tv. I will never stop someone from buying a shotgun (I am mildly addicted to shotguns), but please understand how they work.

A few things to try and think about. How long does it take you to fully load up your tube? 3 gunners are great, but only because they spend hours practicing. Now think about someone scared, heart racing, in the dark unfamiliar stuffing the tube. How long will it take to load? Will she try to stuff shells in backward or without the chamber closed?

Also, shot doesn't spread as big as people think it does. Only takes a trip to a skeet range to learn that lesson. Best case, a shot pattern is somewhere between the size of a baseball and a softball after heading down an average hallway. That leaves plenty of room to miss, especially if the shotgun is not properly pointed from the shoulder.

Lastly, walk out a bedroom in your house into a hallway holding a shotgun in a position that it can be quickly fired. How much of the barrel came out before you could see a target? Probably much more than you thought. Could a hiding intruder grab it away from you?

This is all food for thought, but most specifically reasons why people need to practice, and take owning a firearm seriously.

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Why wouldn't it be loaded? Pump shotguns give a variety of states of readiness they can be in. Right now, my 870 has a fully-loaded mag tube with the action locked on an empty chamber, safety off. If I need it, I can either press the trigger and pump it, or press the switch up front and pump it. I could also have a loaded mag tube, one in the chamber, and the safety on if I wanted, but prefer to not. Another option is loading up the mag tube, dropping one in the ejection port, and pumping forward just enough for the lifter to catch and hold the shell. With no shell in the chamber and the action open, it's "safer" for if it falls over or gets bumped in to, but if you need it you can just pick it up by the pump itself to close the action and chamber the shell. I wouldn't keep it completely unloaded...that's just too much time to get it ready.

Of course I feel comfortable keeping the 870 closed on an empty chamber because I have the m&p45 mounted to the bed for if we don't have much time to respond to a threat(hands and knife by headboard if we have even less time). If I'm getting the 870 or AR, it's because I have some time to get out of bed and move a couple steps to where they're kept. If I have that much time an extra pump isn't that big a deal. Interestingly enough, the AR is kept with one in the chamber but the safety on. I'm not sure why I trust the AR with the safety on more than the 870, but I just do.

Of course this is until the youngin comes along...then accessibility to the guns will go down a bit as kid-safety becomes more of a factor. At that point the handgun goes into a quick-access box next to the bed and the rifles/shotgun gets clam-locked to a closet wall/ in the gun safe. They'll still be loaded up, but just locked up.

As for moving through the house, it's reasons why
1) barricading yourself + loved ones in a room and calling for LEO's to clear your house for you
2) get more training
3) get home security cameras with a viewing monitor in the master bedroom/phone
4) your home is your castle, set it up with intentionality to make it easy for you to defend

...are all good ideas.

1 extended) When there's a threat in your house, it becomes a CQB situation. In this, the challenge is to find the opposing force and neutralize them before they can get you. Your obstacles are not knowing where the threat is and not knowing when you will encounter them. You can limit these obstacles by barricading yourself in a location and letting them come to you, or by inviting friends along to limit the area you're responsible for searching.

If you are barricaded in a room, you know exactly where the threat will be coming in(assuming they use doors and don't make their own entrance). You can place yourself in a position of advantage and even place some concealment/cover in front of you to mask your position and to give yourself a little protection. The only thing you don't know is WHEN the threat will be coming. In a HD situation, you get a better idea of when if the threat spends time time beating on the door to try to get in...it's why sliding some furniture in front of the door is a good idea, to give you more advanced warning of when the threat is coming.

If you're going searching through the house and have friends with you, you can divide rooms in to manageable slices to limit the time it takes to find the threat and to engage them. Your advantage is surprise, since they don't know when you'll be attacking, only from where. It's why a clean/fast breach of an entrance is such a big deal if you're moving around in this environment. It's also why it's best to create your own entrance through walls and things can be advantageous, along with the use of offensive explosives to disorient those in the room to give you more time to search and respond.

In a hd setting, leaving your room and going out on your own to search the home is a worst case scenario. It may have to happen in order to secure kids, or to verify that there actually is a threat and not just an animal making a noise...but it's far from ideal. In this case, you don't know where the threat is AND you don't know when you'll encounter them. You've given up any advantage you have in managing those variables. which leads to...

2 extended) getting more training. Not just for you, but for the whole family. Remember the number one way to manage those variables when moving is to invite friends along in order to spread out the workload. Take classes with your wife so you can learn how to work together to move. Also do some dry-runs through your home with airsoft for practice and coreographing responsibilities.

Extra training will also help with giving you a skill set edge over the threat in your home. You can learn how to effectively shoot accurately, fast. You can also learn how to use handheld and weapon-mounted lights in conjunction with lightswitches to move without giving away your position. You can learn how to move around and shoot from concealment, utilizing both sides of your body and being careful not to splash light back at yourself or getting hung up on things(the first time I shot an IDPA side-match with my AR, I suddenly became very aware that I had a muzzle that extended beyond my hands that could hit things when I move side-to-side). Most importantly, training can help with judgment under stressful situations to try to manage the tunnel vision you'll have.

3/4 extended) Your home is your castle, and you can build it up to give you advantages. The basics are putting thorny bushes under windows, putting motion-lights around the perimeter, and making sure doors and windows are reinforced and have strong locks...and are actually locked. There's also using your house to help you. Knowledge of where light switches are and planning where the lights they turn on are can help when moving in the dark. It'll help prevent you backlighting yourself when moving through an area.

You can also move through your home and find where you have a hard time moving around corners. Stick some intentionally placed mirrors there in your home-decorating. A small mirror, angled at 45 degrees on a book shelf or on the back of a door will likely be missed by a stranger....but could really give you an edge in preparing for moving in to a room. Where are other people(like kids) in terms of lines of fire?

Surprisingly, screwing some sheets of floor-tiling on the back of a full bookshelf can actually make for a pretty decent bullet-trap. Placing this in between a potential line of fire and a kid's bed could really make a big difference.

Security cameras/ baby monitors can make a pretty big difference in things as well. If set up right, they can essentially eliminate the need to leave your room to check on disturbances. If you look on the screen and see some people in your home that don't belong there, you can proceed to gathering up loved ones and barricading yourselves in a room without having to go look. If you must move for whatever reason, it can give you the edge on finding and surprising them before they get you.

....just some more thoughts in addition to the caliber/platform debate.

Selene said:

I want to take a step back. I think mostly everyone is missing the point. If she is unwilling to learn or practice, she has no place being around firearms. Untrained she is a hazard to herself and family. Owning a firearm is a great responsibility.

With that said, shotguns are not the quintessential home defense tool that people think they are. Much of that is based on bad information, urban legend, and bad tv. I will never stop someone from buying a shotgun (I am mildly addicted to shotguns), but please understand how they work.

A few things to try and think about. How long does it take you to fully load up your tube? 3 gunners are great, but only because they spend hours practicing. Now think about someone scared, heart racing, in the dark unfamiliar stuffing the tube. How long will it take to load? Will she try to stuff shells in backward or without the chamber closed?

Also, shot doesn't spread as big as people think it does. Only takes a trip to a skeet range to learn that lesson. Best case, a shot pattern is somewhere between the size of a baseball and a softball after heading down an average hallway. That leaves plenty of room to miss, especially if the shotgun is not properly pointed from the shoulder.

Lastly, walk out a bedroom in your house into a hallway holding a shotgun in a position that it can be quickly fired. How much of the barrel came out before you could see a target? Probably much more than you thought. Could a hiding intruder grab it away from you?

This is all food for thought, but most specifically reasons why people need to practice, and take owning a firearm seriously.

Click to expand...

Good thinking and visualizing how you will deal with a HD situation should be a critical part of anyone's analysis. Agree on the training points.

Otherwise, how many people keep a HD gun completely unloaded. Honestly, I dont. Its loaded, not one in the chamber but a quick pump and its ready to go. If you plan on loading any gun, you are best sticking with other mag fed platforms, but even then you have lost 10 to 30 seconds finding the mag, inserting it, racking the slide or bolt.

As for pointability, thats where a shotgun shines as it isnt precision, its center of mass.

Look, if there is one thing I learned in my years of watching TV and Movies, you don't need to aim a shotgun. Just shoot from the hip, and you'll hit your target every time.

coachgun simple to use gauge that both can handle.

I agreed with Selene about training and willingness to use it.

Firstly, train, train, train. You wouldn't want to learn to use a chain saw in a high pressure situation. Same with a firearm. Either can hurt the person on either end, if not used properly. A pump is a good choice, but if recoil keeps you from practicing, get an auto. Be sure to keep the innards of an auto very clean so it does not fail on you when you need it.

If it has to be a shotty:

http://www.shotlock.com/SoloVault.asp

For less weight and recoil:

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-autoloading-mossberg-international-sa-20-sa-20-bantam/75770

Ammo:

http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SS_65656

For more stopping power:

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-autoloading-mossberg-930-all-purpose/85110

If you really MUST move around the house, you should have special training, and a shotty is too long to effectively navigate.

http://us.glock.com/products/model/g19

http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer...gold-dot-124-grain-le-hollow-point-ammo-53617


http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

I specifically recommend the 20 gauge for women and recoil-sensitive men who dislike the blast and recoil of the 12 gauge. "Delivering roughly the ballistic force of two .44 Magnum rounds at once," comments the knowledgeable Ayoob, the 20 "delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil". Many police departments have found their officers shoot much more accurately in realistic training exercises with the lighter kicking, but still potent, 20 gauge.

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Better idea. Remington 870 with 18.5" barrel and a Knoxx Spec Ops recoil reducing stock. They can collapse the stock for her, and it makes shooting a LOT more pleasant than a standard stock. They make the same stock for the Mossberg, but it's hard to work the safety with a pistol grip on the 500.

We live in a town home and don't want over penetration. We elected to put an 18.5" barrel on our Maverick 88 (parts interchangeable with Mossberg 500). It much easier to move it around, and make some serious flash & noise. I can only imagine how it would look/sound in a dark room. We keep #7 shot in it. Considering how close someone would have to be in my house, it will work just fine.

IMO a good quality handgun .38 or above is the better option. But if necessary, or as a supplement, the largest gauge SG the user can comfortably shoot several times in rapid succession loaded with 00. I recommend pistol grip with a collapsible stock, not the pistol grip only variety. But almost any firearm is better than a bat, knife, golf club or trust and hope.

jwhite407 said:

We keep #7 shot in it. Considering how close someone would have to be in my house, it will work just fine.

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On a short distance, that glob of #7 shot will go right through your walls.

12 gauge. I have a Gen II Knoxx stock with the pistol grip and a sling for a little extra control. First two in the tube are #8 birdshot, then two 00 buck, then two slugs.

jwhite407 said:

We live in a town home and don't want over penetration. We elected to put an 18.5" barrel on our Maverick 88 (parts interchangeable with Mossberg 500). It much easier to move it around, and make some serious flash & noise. I can only imagine how it would look/sound in a dark room. We keep #7 shot in it. Considering how close someone would have to be in my house, it will work just fine.

Click to expand...

you're going to want to switch to #1 buck, #4 buck at the smallest.

I realized I voted in the poll but when I said stuff about my Mnnnnaverick 88, I didn't put that it was a 20 ga. not a typical 12ga.

I'd recommend 12... but 20 would be fine too... whatever they get, take her to the range and have her get comfortable with it. The time to get familiar with a firearm is well before you have an intruder in your home.

BlackBart said:

I picked the SXS coach for maximum simplicity

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Now you sound like Joe Biden.

Selene said:

I want to take a step back. I think mostly everyone is missing the point. If she is unwilling to learn or practice, she has no place being around firearms. Untrained she is a hazard to herself and family. Owning a firearm is a great responsibility.

With that said, shotguns are not the quintessential home defense tool that people think they are. Much of that is based on bad information, urban legend, and bad tv. I will never stop someone from buying a shotgun (I am mildly addicted to shotguns), but please understand how they work.

A few things to try and think about. How long does it take you to fully load up your tube? 3 gunners are great, but only because they spend hours practicing. Now think about someone scared, heart racing, in the dark unfamiliar stuffing the tube. How long will it take to load? Will she try to stuff shells in backward or without the chamber closed?

Also, shot doesn't spread as big as people think it does. Only takes a trip to a skeet range to learn that lesson. Best case, a shot pattern is somewhere between the size of a baseball and a softball after heading down an average hallway. That leaves plenty of room to miss, especially if the shotgun is not properly pointed from the shoulder.

Lastly, walk out a bedroom in your house into a hallway holding a shotgun in a position that it can be quickly fired. How much of the barrel came out before you could see a target? Probably much more than you thought. Could a hiding intruder grab it away from you?

This is all food for thought, but most specifically reasons why people need to practice, and take owning a firearm seriously.

Click to expand...

Exactly. In reading that OP, the wife needs to answer some hard questions, and not just have something shoved at her, which it sounds like is happening.
Please ask her, do you want to be involved in shooting an intruder threatening you? Are you willing to practice and train for it?

If you don't get the correct answers, jesus, please stop. You're creating more harm than good.
Change your HD reasoning at that point.

What's scary is so many here just missed all that in the OP and started posting the gun of choice. I hope we are really listening to our family and what they would willingly do in the scenario.

Be safe all.

Pale Ryder said:

Now you sound like Joe Biden.

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No, I didn't pick him.

12 seems to be the go to. I guess it depends on size of the user and how comfortable they are.

Gee, wonder why the military ONLY uses 12 Ga? They probably have sound reason and know what has the most stopping power.