12 gauge, 20 gauge, or .410 for home defense?

fabsroman said:

Small, light guns recoil like a mule kicking you in the face.

My recommendation would be a 12 gauge just for the sheer lethality, and then a mercury recoil reducer on the mag cap if they are going with a collapsible stock. The mercury recoil reducer in my Benelli SBE and Beretta 391 Teknys butt stocks seriously tame the recoil compared to my o/u shotguns.

I would also suggest a semi-auto. I know I shoot a semi-auto and o/u way better than the Browning BPS that I hunted with for a decade. The difference on the skeet field was extremely noticeable. No need for he or his wife to have to add an additional step to the mix (i.e., pumping the shotgun).

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In life or death situations recoil is about the last thing on ones mind. Have you ever really "felt" the recoil when killing a deer? If Mr. Intruder was entering the bedroom or wherever recoil is the last thing on ones mind. A semi in 12 ga would certainly be fine as well.... short barrel, I think my Browning B-80 had a 26 inch tube, that would be a good choice too. I picked the SXS coach for maximum simplicity for the OP's situation and expertise involved. As much as I like a 870 that would be further down the list for the green pea.

BlackBart said:

In life or death situations recoil is about the last thing on ones mind. Have you ever really "felt" the recoil when killing a deer? If Mr. Intruder was entering the bedroom or wherever recoil is the last thing on ones mind. A semi in 12 ga would certainly be fine as well.... short barrel, I think my Browning B-80 had a 26 inch tube, that would be a good choice too. I picked the SXS coach for maximum simplicity for the OP's situation and expertise involved. As much as I like a 870 that would be further down the list for the green pea.

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In a life or death situation, the shooter does not feel the recoil, but it is still there. Recoil makes the gun hard to control for a follow up shot, even if it is not felt by the shooter.

Recoil makes practice sessions tough, and even worse, can turn new shooters off to shooting.

Have I ever felt recoil while shooting at game? Yes. Split my forehead open with the rifle scope on my .300 Win Mag. Nearly broke my hand when I accidentally put a turkey load in my shotgun while goose hunting. The difference between that load and the steel loads I was shooting was night and day. My hand was actually numb for an hour after I pulled the trigger. With that said, the vast majority of the time I am shooting at game, I don't feel any recoil.

Don't obsess about *best-est* . If we were talking about what gage for long-ish range deer hunting in a buckshot only jurisdiction , we would be having a different , albeit interesting, conversation. Within the parameters of self/ home defense a 20ga is more than sufficent. ( I use either at random.)

If the guns weigh the same, the 20ga will have less recoil. Many 20's will weigh about a pound less typical 12's. They will be easier to handle , but will bring the recoil back up to similar to 12ga. Is weight or recoil more important to your friends ? We don't ( can't ) know , only they can after trying each.

Either a 20ga 2.75 3B , or the various 12ga low recoil Buck have a recoil level that is fairly modest by objective standards. If there are specific physical issues that require very low recoil , then we get into gas operated semi-autos, recoil reducers , etc

Personally I default to pumps, conventional stocks , and plain beads. Unless they are massivly different in size ( NBA player & 4'9" ballerina ) , then size the conventional stock for the smaller person , and the larger will be able to deal with a shorter stock. There is a substantial minority percentage that prefers a duty/ defensive. Butt stock to but substantaly shorter that average.

12 ga. It has a huge variety of ammo varying from knock the fillings out shells to low recoil buck and slugs. Slugs for 20 and 12 are pretty good but all the time has been put into the 12ga for home defense. If they can not handle 12ga reduced recoil slugs or buck shot from Federal or the like they will probably not do any better with the 20ga.

Great feedback. After more consideration and sleeping on it I feel the best for him is either a 20 gauge semiauto with recoil reducing 'youth' stock with pistol grip, simple bead, extended tube (7+1), and affix a flashlight.

Or -



Rossi Circuit Judge (.410 revolver carbine) with new ATI Zombie stock ($150).

fabsroman said:

I was going to suggest a bazooka or howitzer, but a 10 gauge would do. No body for the morgue.

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Shame 4 gauge is so rare

Just go a 10 gauge sxs debating weather to coach gun it or leave it be. Nothing says get off my porch like sxs large bore shotguns

august1410 said:

For what it's worth, my 13 year old daughter (five-eight, average build, 130lbs) can handle a 12ga pump with little or no effort and keep it on target with both buckshot and turkey loads.

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I went with 410 because my slightly smaller 12 year old daughter is better with the 410.

Not saying you are wrong and we are right, everyone is different, the right gun for you isn't the right one for us.

As my daughter gets older we could very well change.

Went with 12, based on OP criteria, $$, maybe only one gun ever, etc. Thinking 870 or 500 for simple, memorable function, add a rail, light, laser, all for <$1,000. Maybe a PAST pad for the wife, in case she ever wants to train, ammo is everywhere, toddler and infant not a factor.

Minuteman said:

Here's the dilemma.....

... his wife is average size and fitness, but much less likely to be willing to take any training or even practice.

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This needs to be seriously addressed before any talk of a particular gun purchase. With gun ownership comes personal responsibility and the willingness to learn to operate the weapon safely.

plinkerton said:

I went with 410 because my slightly smaller 12 year old daughter is better with the 410.

Not saying you are wrong and we are right, everyone is different, the right gun for you isn't the right one for us.

As my daughter gets older we could very well change.

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My daughter started with .410 and worked her way up. The right .410 definitely can be a good gun, regardless of the purpose.

Use what works best for you. I debated about posting in the thread, actually.....whether handguns, shotguns or rifles, each person handles each gun differently and should shoot what feels right for them. If the gun feels right, in my opinion, the ability to use it to its full potential will follow.

+1 for 20 ga.
Itll stop any home invader for sure and is more controlable

Though I do have a 12 ga here, 20ga can be handled by anyone in my family.

I notice little difference in perceived recoil between my 12 ga. beretta 391 and my benelli 20ga monty. However, even though my 125lb daughter can shoot either one for trap she prefers the monty because it is lighter in her hands and can 75 rounds with no problem. i agree with the notion that a semi-auto in either ga would do you and your family well.

12 ga with reduced recoil 00 buckshot in something like an 870 or 500 with 18" barrel, and collapseable stock. Mount a light directly on the gun. The most important aspect is the software issue.

Reduced recoil loads really do make a 12 kick similar or less than a .20 ga. They still retain plenty of lethality with a pretty big payload and aren't that loud. There's also many more loads available for defense in .12, as well as many more aftermarket accessories for the guns(like a knock spec-ops stock to both reduce recoil further and to provide an adustable stock for both the man and woman to comfortably use).

A pump is valuable for someone without much training for the same reason a revolver can be good....there's basically one motor program whether you're firing the next shot or clearing a malfunction(usually ammo-related). On a pump-action, if you press the trigger and nothing happens....you pump and press the trigger again. If you press the trigger and need to fire another shot, you pump the gun and press the trigger. Your brain doesn't need to toggle through the correct motor program solution, it just keeps doing what it's already doing and things work out.

On a semi, you have a motor program to fire, and a separate motor program to clear a malfunction. To fire, you press the trigger, reset, and press the trigger again...to clear a malfunction, you've got to recognize the malfunction, switch motor programs, and then act to get the gun back up. While shot-to-shot times can be faster with a semi, murphy's law clearing times are slower....especially if you're not training much with the platform.

The light mounted directly on the gun is important. It should be something like a TLR1 in 300 lumens or even the new HL at 630 lumens. Having that much power really gives the user the ability to splash off of the ceiling, walls, or floor to illuminate a situation without having to point the gun directly at an unknown.


And the most important issue is the software. At pointed out earlier, a gun is a weapon that can easily kill. Both for legal reasons and practical, it's important the use be comfortable with using potentially deadly force when necessary...but also NOT using it when not necessary. It's just as dangerous to your future to load birdshot into a shotgun with the assumption that it won't be lethal, for use in situations where killing is not justified, as it is to load in a gun for when lethal force IS justified.

A plan should also come up in the discussion of "is a gun the right tool for us". In general terms, what happens if there is an intruder in the home? Ideally, they would lock and barricade themselves into a secure room, in a position of advantage within the room. Have they done a walk-through of their house to find out where that is yet? Then, they open communication with the local police...911 works, but having the number to the local police dispatch can be quicker. They should have a plan for how to communicate to let the responding police know where they are in the home and what they look like. they may also have a door-key attached to a glow-stick to toss out a window so the police can get easy access to the house when they arrive.

If the badguy(s) comes through the barricaded door and they're forced to shoot, do they have a plan for what happens next? While it may kill the person, it also likely won't. You've now got a bleeding person in your house that still may be a threat. Do you offer first-aid, is there a way available to secure the person and do you have a lawyer to contact to handle communicating with law-enforcement when they arrive?

These are things that anyone considering getting a gun for home defense should think about and be made aware of. Guns aren't for everyone, but people that want them for home defense shouldn't be figuring out how to use them for the first time when their lives are in danger, and they shouldn't be figuring out what to do afterwards in the middle of the situation.

Those are bigger questions to me than what caliber, or even what platform to use for HD.

Minuteman said:

Great feedback. After more consideration and sleeping on it I feel the best for him is either a 20 gauge semiauto with recoil reducing 'youth' stock with pistol grip, simple bead, extended tube (7+1), and affix a flashlight.

Or -

Rossi Circuit Judge (.410 revolver carbine) with new ATI Zombie stock ($150).

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Stop overthinkinking this.

It's pretty straightforward.

Get a simple pump shotgun and add a few modifications.

My pick would be one of these remington 870's:

http://www.remington.com/products/f...-870/model-870-express-synthetic-7-round.aspx

or

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-tactical.aspx

Modifications:

Replace the standard forend with the magpul one for the 870:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG462/186

Add this to the magpul forend:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG403/46

Then attach a weaponlight to that rail section. For example something like this:

http://www.streamlight.com/en-us/product/product.html?pid=80

Now regarding the stock.

If the standard length of pull is fine for the husband and wife, then you don't have to do anything.

If it is too long for the wife, then swap the stock for this:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG460/shotgun

Finally we get to ammunition choice.

A decent basic option is this federal buckshot: (PD 132)

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=909

It is relatively low recoil buckshot.

Better options are:

(law enforcement packaging)

Federal LE132 1B

or

Federal LE132-00

(commercial packaging)


Federal PFC154-00LR


With this setup you have a inexpensive (relatively) shotgun setup for home defense. It is a simple/easy to use setup that is reliable and is easy to maintain.

501st said:

Stop overthinkinking this.

It's pretty straightforward.

Get a simple pump shotgun and add a few modifications.

My pick would be one of these remington 870's:

http://www.remington.com/products/f...-870/model-870-express-synthetic-7-round.aspx

or

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-tactical.aspx

Modifications:

Replace the standard forend with the magpul one for the 870:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG462/186

Add this to the magpul forend:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG403/46

Then attach a weaponlight to that rail section. For example something like this:

http://www.streamlight.com/en-us/product/product.html?pid=80

Now regarding the stock.

If the standard length of pull is fine for the husband and wife, then you don't have to do anything.

If it is too long for the wife, then swap the stock for this:

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG460/shotgun

Finally we get to ammunition choice.

A decent basic option is this federal buckshot: (PD 132)

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=909

It is relatively low recoil buckshot.

Better options are:

(law enforcement packaging)

Federal LE132 1B

or

Federal LE132-00

(commercial packaging)


Federal PFC154-00LR


With this setup you have a inexpensive (relatively) shotgun setup for home defense. It is a simple/easy to use setup that is reliable and is easy to maintain.

Click to expand...

sounds familiar(except for the stock)

Jenni has zero problems handling this and can shoot low-recoil buckshot without it feeling too unpleasant. She's tiny, at around 5'4" and 125 lbs, but by keeping it snugged up tight, she can rip off shots like a champ. The light has the added benefit of essentially being a laser-sight for close distances. Within 15 feet or so, the hotspot of the light pretty much lands where the shot hits...or at least close enough to be able to put the hotspot on center-mass and let one rip. I still need to get the extension tube though.

Any recommendations for a 20g semi home defense shotgun ? All of the 20gs I can find are set up for hunting or trap.

My first shotgun I bought for HD was a 20G. I really liked it, it shot well, not too much recoil, but finding the ammo I wanted was hard. It was difficult to find HD ammo for 20G, at least not as easy as 12G. I bought the 20G thinking about a situation where my wife would have to use it. Years later, I now have a 12G and have some reduced recoil loads ready. 20G is fine, and will do the job of HD. But, I got a combo 12G gun with short and long barrels, so it is much more versatile. Whatever you get, make sure anyone else who is intended to need to use it, would, if need be.

traveller said:

Any recommendations for a 20g semi home defense shotgun ? All of the 20gs I can find are set up for hunting or trap.

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The Mossberg SA-20 has been reviewed well. Can sometimes find for less than $400. Cheapest online is currently here ...

http://www.kygunco.com/mobile/produ...tactical-20ga-20in-matte-black-shotgun-5-shot

Other vendors can be found midway down this page ...

http://www.slickguns.com/product/mo...-20in-matte-black-shotgun-41199-free-shipping

Was thinking of getting one, but then we got a Remington 870 youth model pump in 20 gauge which is so small, fun, and fast to use, that I haven't felt the need to get another 20 gauge.

Oh, as Sirex mentioned, finding HD ammo for a 20 gauge is more of a pain in the rear. Sportsman's Guide has some in stock ...
http://m.sportsmansguide.com/Product.aspx?a=202728
Need to scroll down to the last selection (20 gauge, #3 buck).