PGT&S Fuddism

fabsroman said:

Both my sisters use my 391 youth 20 gauge when we go to PGT&S or to Pintail. If I knew how to upload video to YouTube, I would post a video of the two of them shooting it at PGT&S about a decade ago. Never even knew it was a problem to use a youth gun. What is the issue with youth sized shotguns? Is it that the barrel length is too short?

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Yes, barrel length is the one and only issue on the youth sized guns.

Bountied said:

Everyone is out to get you! They are infringing on our 2A rights by not letting us shoot our pistol grip shotguns! OK, you don't like it. Fine. For me personally I don't give a crap and I would never take a pistol grip shotgun to a sporting clay range nor would I hunt with one. The OP has a problem with this, fine. I don't care and I don't think it's a 2A issue or a "scary black gun" issue either. I've never seen a professional/recreational clay shooter with any kind of colapsible/pistol stock. I have seen them with adjustable LOP and comb height.

This is a policy at this range and I agree that if you don't like it you should speak up, which is what is going on. I feel like a more appropriate forum would be to go to a county council meeting or talk to the person in charge of park and rec however.

Maybe Locke Raven will let you shoot there?

Bicker away...

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No need for me to bicker to you, I welcome your input. It's a discussion and you're free to have a different opinion than me and to voice it. I've had my mind changed a lot on here by people presenting an argument in a cogent way that makes me re-evaluate my position on things.

The reason I feel this policy is driven by an unfavorable outlook on modern guns and the defensive crowd is because the manager and counter worker both straight up told me that. She told me that they have no sporting use and, "This is a sporting clays and trap range not a shotgun range"...that I needed a more "normal" stock. Morgan told me something like(been a few days and I'm paraphrasing here), "I understand there's a whole modern sporting gun trend thing, but that's not going to happen here" and "We worked hard to get our status and aren't about to ruin it by letting people shoot pistol-gripped shotguns here".

He also echoed that they have no sporting purpose. Neither presented any safety argument, which is why I arrived at the conclusion that they are biased against the black gun crowd and are also elitist.

ShallNotInfringe said:

Being relatively new around here, I really don't understand the term "fudd". A few folks have attempted to explain it, but I still don't understand it.

Is it a gun owner that takes the attitude that they don't care about YOUR rights, and they only care about keeping what THEY have? Maybe someone could elaborate what it means, since it is thrown around plenty here on MDS.

Since the thread title contains this term, maybe it's meant as a derogatory term that gets things moving in the wrong direction from the start...

Anyway, I support the OP in his dismay over the PGTS policy, believe he came to the right place to seek support and will support him in affecting a change in their policy - if the plan he puts forth is reasonable. If he needs people to go to council meeting and sit behind him while presenting stock options/pleading his argument, I will be there. It's the people's range and we have the right to ask for reasonable policy changes, which this is.

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Thank you for your support SNI. The "fuddism" part of the title has been explained a couple times by me now and at this point is a distraction away from the real issue. It was a mistake by me to use the word in retrospect. I'd be happy if a mod changed the title to "PGT&S Pistol Grip Policy" or something similar.

I have zero issue with hunters, clay shooters, bullseye guys, idpa, or any other type of shooters as a group. I've tried to say from the start that my issue is solely with PGT&S and in specific, with their pistol-gripped stock policy and the rudeness of morgan in my conversation with him.

I chose the "fuddism" word because I felt it would quickly sum up things. Fudds have traditionally been shooters that either don't care about/support an AWB, removal of concealed carry rights, and magazine restrictions as long as their hunting and/or sporting guns aren't touched. I felt like that pretty accurately described PGT&S's policy and the attitude that was conveyed to me by them. Again, in retrospect it was a mistake and I should have expected people to jump off on gunworld PC tangents about it.

Like chad, I've met plenty of people that fit this derogatory gunworld description behind the counter at basspro for the 7 years I worked there. They do exist, although the mainstream mindset has largely changed to the point that when fuddism is encountered, they are shamed instantly.

circleshooter said:

Interesting conversation. As a serious clay shooter, here are my opinions and observations.

1. Unsafe asshats are everywhere and often don't think rules should apply to them. I've seen it at EVERY range I've ever gone to. That said, I'm not certain in this case that PG's staff understands their own policy. However, we also don't know what specific issues they've had with people at their facility using pistol gripped guns. As we all know, the stupidity of a few usually inspires remedies that penalize everyone. I think they instituted a rule denying the use of "pistol gripped" shotguns without really clarifying what that means. At Loch Raven shotguns must have a barrel longer than 18 inches. Pistol-grip only shotguns are prohibited, but stocked guns with pistol grips are allowed.

2. It makes perfect sense to not allow pistol-grip only shotguns at clay shooting ranges. In my opinion they suck for HD and REALLY suck for clay shooting as they can't be either properly aimed or, more importantly in clay shooting, pointed.

3. But...I see no problem with a stocked shotgun with a pistol-grip like the OP tried to use. Some people prefer them ergonomically and the stock allows a proper, and safe, gun mount for engaging targets. In fact, they are indeed used by serious shooters. Here's a photo a Nill-Griffe EVO-COMP stock. Sure looks like a pistol grip to me. In fact, it's the stock used by Olympic gold medalist Vincent Hancock.

Oh...I'm amazed that there is actually a county government, in this state, that would run a shooting facility of any sort, so I find it frightening that some folks would advocate suing, etc. because they don't like the facility's rules. Trust me, at Loch Raven we've had people incensed they they couldn't use goose loads and left without paying for their rounds. Sorry, for me those are the kind of 2A supporters we can live without.

PG County Trap & Skeet throws over 5 million targets per year and I suspect that revenues they raise pays for a lot of PG County's Department of Parks and Recreation.

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I very much appreciate your input CS. You presented a very educated and common-sense argument. I also agree with not liking/using pistol grip only stocks. Handling them, they just don't give the control of a shoulder-mounted shotgun. They also limit the safe positions in which you can handle them in a sporting environment. Many gun racks wont even take them.

I also wouldn't really like going full-nuclear with a lawsuit over something like this. I do recognize the good PGT&S does for the shooting community(hell, in my time behind the gun counter I can confidently say I've sent literally thousands of customers there to rent guns to try out and to get some training) in this case, they are not providing me the services I want and I am put-off by the customer service I experienced.

I'm going to continue attempting to have talks with management in an attempt to have them think critically about their policy and hopefully change directions. I also hope to convince them to listen to my customer feedback and re-evaluate how they talk about the defensive side of gunworld. My purpose of sharing my experience on here was just to let the community know so that 1) I could get feedback for myself 2) So others may put additional pressure on PGT&S to re-evaluate this policy 3) So other know about it before they waste time and gas rolling down there only to find out they can't use their gun.

In the meantime, I personally am just going to find somewhere else to shoot that does not have this policy. It's really not that big of a deal to me in the scheme of things. Trust me that I've got MUCH bigger things to worry about in my life. It IS a policy I would like changed though, so I'm working to try to get there. If it is changed, PGT&S goes back to offering services that I want in a range and I'll likely go back to shooting there.

Bountied said:

Smokey someone in the classifieds is selling the Magpul stock for the 870 with adjustable LOP and cheek pieces. Problem solved, or you could just buy your wife her own gun!

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Thanks for the tips and trying to help out. The magpul stock really doesn't fit the bill. The idea of the collapseable stock is that I can shoot, collapse it in to it's shortest LOP, hand it to jenni...she can shoot, hand it back to me...and then I can extend it a click and go back to shooting. The magpul stock doesn't exactly replicate this ability. It also makes an 870 look like a nimbus 2000 or something.

As for getting Jenni her own gun, we've got much more important things to spend money on these days. She also doesn't really shoot that often. That's why it was so nice to be able to just shorten my stock for her, have her load it up with some reduced recoil loads, and go to town.

Also, part of the reason I like sporting clays is that it gives me some practice with the shotgun to stay brushed up on things in case I need to grab it for HD. When the 18.5" barrel, tlr3, and side-shell carrier get tossed back on, so does the pistol-grip collapseable stock. It gives my shotgun the same overall feel as my AR and allows for some skill transfer between the two....see what I mean....



I like that the two stocks feel similar, the agf is in a similar place and the lights are in the same place. They're even a similar length when the stocks are set where I like emm.

Aside from that, I've found that I genuinely shoot better with this stock when I've done clays compared to the stock remington...stock. I understand people who say they're not good for clays and traditional stocks are better. For most people, I completely agree. For me personally as an individual, I like this better and do better with it.


I'm still waiting for anyone anywhere out there to give me a safety reason why this type of stock should not be allowed at the range.

smokey0118 said:

[snip]

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Does that wee little hors d'oeuvres knife on the pistol get any double-takes at the range?

I'm a little confused, is grip type specifically mentioned in there range rules?

llkoolkeg said:

Does that wee little hors d'oeuvres knife on the pistol get any double-takes at the range?

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haha that was a present from alucard because he knows I like absurd things. It's normally just used for photo-ops and that's about it.

This is what happens when you put the government in charge of something....

Everybody loses their rights for no logical reason.


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tomandjerry00 said:

This is what happens when you put the government in charge of something....

Everybody loses their rights for no logical reason.


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yep.