The Anatomy of a Sino-Soviet SKS (photo heavy)

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  • bmeade

    Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    6
    I picked up an sks recently. It was my first, and i felt i got a pretty good deal. After doing some research I feel like I have a great rifle. I'm pretty certain It's a Sino-Soviet. The numbers are B4537, all matching. Of course the numbers under the trigger guard start with a 8 instead of a B. I read that was normal. I don't have the original clip, and i'm not sure about the stock. It doesn't have any markings, and it is the jungle stock. Do these items hurt the value at all? And how rare are these rifles? I bought this rifle to sale but I'm not so sure now. It's starting to grow on me.
     

    Alphabrew

    Binary male Lesbian
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2013
    40,749
    Woodbine
    I picked up an sks recently. It was my first, and i felt i got a pretty good deal. After doing some research I feel like I have a great rifle. I'm pretty certain It's a Sino-Soviet. The numbers are B4537, all matching. Of course the numbers under the trigger guard start with a 8 instead of a B. I read that was normal. I don't have the original clip, and i'm not sure about the stock. It doesn't have any markings, and it is the jungle stock. Do these items hurt the value at all? And how rare are these rifles? I bought this rifle to sale but I'm not so sure now. It's starting to grow on me.

    No pics? :(
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    I picked up an sks recently. It was my first, and i felt i got a pretty good deal. After doing some research I feel like I have a great rifle. I'm pretty certain It's a Sino-Soviet. The numbers are B4537, all matching. Of course the numbers under the trigger guard start with a 8 instead of a B. I read that was normal. I don't have the original clip, and i'm not sure about the stock. It doesn't have any markings, and it is the jungle stock. Do these items hurt the value at all? And how rare are these rifles? I bought this rifle to sale but I'm not so sure now. It's starting to grow on me.

    We don't know much about these rifles for a factual certainty, and some recent attempts to sort things about them out might end up changing what we currently believe to be true. That said ...

    Pics really do help.

    What you seem to have is a "letter rifle" that someone may have bought as a "U Fix-em" and fixed up in a non-original manner. The jungle stock is almost certainly not original, and the way that you mention that it doesn't have "the original clip" suggests to me that someone may have put a (not original) detachable magazine on it. We can't tell without seeing it.

    If what I suspect has been done to it is true, it does lower the value from a collector's standpoint, but you might be able to find a non-collector who thinks it looks cool. You may also have a rifle that has been modified enough that it's not a C&R ... and maybe worse than that.
     

    Yingpin

    Ultimate Member
    May 31, 2013
    1,054
    Kingsville, MD
    I received my first one from Classic and the stocks you guys have shown are beauties compared to mine. Mine is all matching including the stock. It does have the side sling mount but the wood is dark and rough. I like it more and more every day. I did spend some time removing the cosmo and it has lightened up in some areas. Machdoc, thanks for the tips and support!! I will reassemble tonight and get some pics out.





    Before I cleaned it up
     
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    Yingpin

    Ultimate Member
    May 31, 2013
    1,054
    Kingsville, MD
    I picked up mine at the Chantilly, VA Gun Show last Friday.
    the Dealer only had 5 of them, there were 3 left on Sunday, they were real rough, no bluing on the metal, large chunks carved out of the stocks
    so no one would pay 299.00 for them. They are IO imports

    That is a pretty good price especially since you get to look and pick it. Where did you get your sling? Has anyone picked up a replacement cleaning kit that stores in the stock? If so where and what recommendations?
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    I received my first one from Classic and the stocks you guys have shown are beauties compared to mine. Mine is all matching including the stock. It does have the side sling mount but the wood is dark and rough. I like it more and more every day.

    Yours doesn't look bad at all to me, Yingpin! It's just a little dark. Some of that will clean out, but it will probably still be fairly dark. That's OK. It's an old veteran of two nations. Preserve it and be proud of it. I promise that, over time, you'll grow to like it more and more ... but if you try to make it into something it's not, you'll eventually regret it.
     

    Alphabrew

    Binary male Lesbian
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2013
    40,749
    Woodbine
    I received my first one from Classic and the stocks you guys have shown are beauties compared to mine. Mine is all matching including the stock. It does have the side sling mount but the wood is dark and rough. I like it more and more every day. I did spend some time removing the cosmo and it has lightened up in some areas. Machdoc, thanks for the tips and support!! I will reassemble tonight and get some pics out.



    Yours is bad ass! Love it!
     

    bmeade

    Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    6
    I picked up an sks recently. It was my first, and i felt i got a pretty good deal. After doing some research I feel like I have a great rifle. I'm pretty certain It's a Sino-Soviet. The numbers are B4537, all matching. Of course the numbers under the trigger guard start with a 8 instead of a B. I read that was normal. I don't have the original clip, and i'm not sure about the stock. It doesn't have any markings, and it is the jungle stock. Do these items hurt the value at all? And how rare are these rifles? I bought this rifle to sale but I'm not so sure now. It's starting to grow on me.

    here are some pics
     

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    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    here are some pics

    Hey, bmeade -

    You came here asking for info about the collector value of your rifle, and I'm going to give it to you straight. I'm not trying to pee in your Wheaties, but just giving you the most accurate info that I can.

    But first of all, know that how a collector looks at a firearm is often rather different than how someone else looks at one. In most cases, we look for it to be original first of all, then start looking at things like matching numbers, condition, unusual models, rarity, etc.

    The average non-collector wants it to be new-looking and badass.

    Here's what you've got:

    What you have started out to be a Sino-Soviet letter gun. These were, for a long time, assumed to have been made in 1956, but that's being re-examined by some collectors. The jury is still out on that. I personally have mixed feelings, but I do know that it was made between 1956 (when the Chinese production started) and 1962. I've been able to find primary-source documentation that the Chinese shipped small infantry arms and artillery to Albania prior to June, 1962, but after February, 1961.

    The letter rifles were pretty rare in the U.S. for many years, but since 2012, a bunch of them have been imported from Albania, where they were used, then stored, after being given/sold/traded to that country by China.

    Most of the stocks on the ones from Albania were in well-used condition. OK ... they weren't pretty, and they were packed in cosmoline. The majority simply needed some TLC, but some were cracked and broken. Some buyers didn't like the original look of the stocks on these (most collectors do), or they got rifles with stocks that couldn't be salvaged.

    Yours is almost certainly one of those that came through Albania. A previous owner apparently bought it and decided to put it into a fiberglass Chinese "jungle stock". That's not the original stock, so that's a detraction for a collector, but it's legal.

    Then he may have decided that it needed to have a removable high-capacity mag, so he took out the original mag (which should have been a matching-number part) in order to accommodate an after-market one that would/should snap in and out ... another big detraction ... and perhaps a problem.

    I'm assuming that you don't have any mag at all for it, so it's just an incomplete rifle that's missing the original one. (Say, "Yes.")

    Then, he decided that it needed a rail on it, so he tapped the bolt cover and installed one ... creating another detraction for collectors by modifying a numbered part.

    From what we call the "bubba" viewpoint, your rifle is worth whatever you can get someone to give you for a substantially modified rifle. You might find a non-collector who thinks it's cool ... but you may have some surprises in store for you, too.

    From a collector's standpoint, it's had too much done to it to make it very attractive. It would cost a fair amount of money to put it back to original, and then you'd have a non-matching serial numbers rifle (a "mixmaster").

    Now for the surprises.

    Federal Level
    What you have may no longer a C&R rifle. If there's an incorrect mag with it, changing the mag took care of that. You also need to take a CLOSE look at these sites to see if it's now in compliance with federal law:
    http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSKSVerifyCompliance

    http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#TEN_OR_LESS_DISCUSS

    MD State Level
    I'll let some of the MD experts try to explain the laws, but I think that if you have the wrong capacity mag in it, it may not even be legal to sell in MD now.

    I don't see any mag at all with/in the rifle, so I'm assuming that your intention in presenting it to us was to show it as an incomplete "parts rifle" that doesn't have a mag, and you're trying to find an original mag to put back onto it. Right?
     
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    bmeade

    Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    6
    Hey, bmeade -

    You came here asking for info about the collector value of your rifle, and I'm going to give it to you straight. I'm not trying to pee in your Wheaties, but just giving you the most accurate into that I can.

    But first of all, know that how a collector looks at a firearm is often rather different than how someone else looks at one. In most cases, we look for it to be original first of all, then start looking at things like matching numbers, condition, unusual models, rarity, etc.

    The average non-collector wants it to be new-looking and badass.

    Here's what you've got:

    What you have started out to be a Sino-Soviet letter gun. These were, for a long time, assumed to have been made in 1956, but that's being re-examined by some collectors. The jury is still out on that. I personally have mixed feelings, but I do know that it was made between 1956 (when the Chinese production started) and 1962. I've been able to find primary-source documentation that the Chinese shipped small infantry arms and artillery to Albania prior to June, 1962, but after February, 1961.

    The letter rifles were pretty rare in the U.S. for many years, but since 2012, a bunch of them have been imported from Albania, where they were used, then stored, after being given/sold/traded to that country by China.

    Most of the stocks on the ones from Albania were in well-used condition. OK ... they weren't pretty, and they were packed in cosmoline. The majority simply needed some TLC, but some were cracked and broken. Some buyers didn't like the original look of the stocks on these (most collectors do), or they got rifle with stocks that couldn't be salvaged.

    Yours is almost certainly one of those that came through Albania. A previous owner apparently bought it and decided to put it into a fiberglass Chinese "jungle stock". That's not the original stock, so that's a detraction for a collector, but it's legal.

    Then he may have decided that it needed to have a removable high-capacity mag, so he took out the original mag (which should have been a matching-number part) in order to accommodate an after-market one that would/should snap in and out ... another big detraction ... and perhaps a problem.

    I'm assuming that you don't have any mag at all for it, so it's just an incomplete rifle that's missing the original one. (Say, "Yes.")

    Then, he decided that it needed a rail on it, so he tapped the bolt cover and installed one ... creating another detraction for collectors by modifying a numbered part.

    From what we call the "bubba" viewpoint, your rifle is worth whatever you can get someone to give you for a substantially modified rifle. You might find a non-collector who thinks it's cool ... but you may have some surprises in store for you, too.

    From a collector's standpoint, it's had too much done to it to make it very attractive. It would cost a fair amount of money to put it back to original, and then you'd have a non-matching serial numbers rifle (a "mixmaster").

    Now for the surprises.

    Federal Level
    What you have may no longer a C&R rifle. If there's an incorrect mag with it, changing the mag took care of that. You also need to take a CLOSE look at these sites to see if it's now in compliance with federal law:
    http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSKSVerifyCompliance

    http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#TEN_OR_LESS_DISCUSS

    MD State Level
    I'll let some of the MD experts try to explain the laws, but I think that if you have the wrong capacity mag in it, it may not even be legal to sell in MD now.

    I don't see any mag at all with/in the rifle, so I'm assuming that your intention in presenting it to us was to show it as an incomplete "parts rifle" that doesn't have a mag, and you're trying to find an original mag to put back onto it. Right?

    It didn't have a mag when I took the pics. I have since purchased on original mag. The numbers don't match, but it is a great shooting rifle. I have been in contact with the previous owner to try to get the rear cover and original mag. That hasn,t worked out to well. I think i'll keep it for now. It makes a great truck rifle. It has sparked a bit of curiosity in me and the wife. Maybe we'll look for another rifle down the road. Thank you for your input.
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    That's exactly what the SKS was intended to be.:thumbsup:

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that's what it was intended to be. They started out as military firearms, but the later Chinese rifles (made specifically for commercial export though Norinco) were marketed in a way that made them seem attractive as a truck rifle.

    They were sold as "The Farmer's Friend" -- which actually can have a double meaning, if you've studied 20th century Chinese history. Chairman Mao's first real military activity in China was leading an insurrection, initially made up of peasant farmers, that was called, "The Autumn Harvest" uprising. His Red Army, that later fought a much larger-scale war against the Kuomintang in the Chinese Civil War, was composed largely of peasant farmers, but sought to unite rural agricultural workers and urban industrial workers in common cause.

    Who knows? Maybe Mao and his people imagined that making inexpensive military-style firearms available to American farmers would enable them to rise up in a similar way against what he saw as an oppressive and expansionist U.S. government?

    That said, they do make handy truck rifles, but I couldn't bring myself to just toss one into the crossover toolbox and let it bounce around in there.
     

    brentb636

    Active Member
    Nov 16, 2013
    143
    Holland, Mi
    "That said, they do make handy truck rifles, but I couldn't bring myself to just toss one into the crossover toolbox and let it bounce around in there." You and me both. Need to show a little respect !! :)
    Brent
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    OK, what is a "truck rifle"?

    Pretty much just what it sounds like. It's a (usually kind of a "beater") rifle that you keep behind the bench seat, or (ugh!) in the cross-over tool box of your truck.

    In rural areas (such as where I've lived a lot of my life), a rifle is a practical tool to have available when you are "out and about" or out on the farm. If deer season's in, and you can hunt with a rifle, it's nice to have something available in case you're out working and a nice buck shows up. Similarly, if you, or someone else, smacks a deer on the road, and it's crippled but not dead, you can put it out of its misery. A growing problem around where I live is coyotes, and it's nice to be able to grab a rifle if one of them comes into view (rare, but it happens) while you are out on the farm ... or you may see a fox getting one of your chickens (happens a lot here) and you need to put a stop to it.

    When I was a kid, nearly every truck in the South had a rack inside the back window with a shotgun and a rifle hung up there. "Folks from up nawth" wanted to make that practice into some sort of racial intimidation tactic, but it was just a convenience. One of my friends, a carpenter, used to carry a long level and an umbrella in his truck's gun rack, in an attempt to show that they were all just tools. (He had a shotgun behind the front seat.) Eventually, people quit carrying them so openly because it invited break-ins and theft. Lots of farmers still keep a firearm in their trucks, though, because it's a useful tool.
     

    smoothebore

    Active Member
    I call this "My Shop Rifle",

    Because I'm usually out in the workshop when I see a fox, racoon, or very rarely a coyote. Don't worry guys, it ain't permanent. I know it's Bubba, but.....varmints are usually at the wood line which is 100 yards, and being far sighted I see them, but can't see the rifle sights. The mount is by UTG. The scope is 4 x 30 fixed by BSA. The butt extension is a 2 1/2" chunk of ebony. It shoots a fox killing size group at 100yds if I slow down and let the barrel cool off.
     

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    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,174
    Outside the Gates
    I thought the SKS was developed in Russia for second line troops, truck drivers, combat engineers etc
     

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