Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Apr 19, 2018

When I was in law enforcement we were trained that, unless the officer has probable cause that he can articulate...the driver is not obligated to allow a search. That means any legal firearms in the vehicle are properly secured and ammunition is also secured separately from the firearms. If the driver has a firearm in plain view...legal or illegal...the officer has probable cause by the plain view doctrine to detain you and conduct a search of the interior of the vehicle within the driver's wingspan for anything illegal. Any contraband within the scope of that search is evidence and the driver can be arrested. Any further search of the vehicle such as the trunk or a locked briefcase...depending on the jurisdiction, state law and department protocols can be done as an inventory search incident to arrest or may require a search warrant.

But nothing legally stops an officer for simply asking you whether have any guns, drugs or other contraband. If you say no he has no right to go further without probable cause he can articulate. All cops are trained that permission gets you everything...and it's amazing how many give permission when asked and then get arrested when contraband is found. All it would have taken is to have refused permission for a search.

buellsfurn · Apr 19, 2018

esqappellate said:
The petitioner under HB1302 is expressly granted complete immunity from criminal and civil liability for filing a petition if the petitioner does so in "good faith." So, yes, HB 1302 immunity would arguably be from charges that could have otherwise been brought under Section 9-501

thank you sir. double standards when it comes getting guns off the streets

rob-cubed · Apr 19, 2018

Back to the original question: while there is nothing in law that requires a home-made firearm to bear a serial number... I seriously doubt most folks at the MSP Firearms Division, much less a standard beat cop, know the laws as well as some of us do. It may be legal, but if seized erroneously it's still your problem to get it back.

I stamped everything I rolled myself, just because.

esqappellate · Apr 19, 2018

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
When I was in law enforcement we were trained that, unless the officer has probable cause that he can articulate...the driver is not obligated to allow a search. That means any legal firearms in the vehicle are properly secured and ammunition is also secured separately from the firearms. If the driver has a firearm in plain view...legal or illegal...the officer has probable cause by the plain view doctrine to detain you and conduct a search of the interior of the vehicle within the driver's wingspan for anything illegal. Any contraband within the scope of that search is evidence and the driver can be arrested. Any further search of the vehicle such as the trunk or a locked briefcase...depending on the jurisdiction, state law and department protocols can be done as an inventory search incident to arrest or may require a search warrant.

But nothing legally stops an officer for simply asking you whether have any guns, drugs or other contraband. If you say no he has no right to go further without probable cause he can articulate. All cops are trained that permission gets you everything...and it's amazing how many give permission when asked and then get arrested when contraband is found. All it would have taken is to have refused permission for a search.

All of this is absolutely correct!

My Toy · Apr 19, 2018

rob-cubed said:
Back to the original question: while there is nothing in law that requires a home-made firearm to bear a serial number... I seriously doubt most folks at the MSP Firearms Division, much less a standard beat cop, know the laws as well as some of us do. It may be legal, but if seized erroneously it's still your problem to get it back.

I stamped everything I rolled myself, just because.

Out of curiosity how and where do you self stamp an 80% handgun lower or 80% rifle lower?

whistlersmother · Apr 19, 2018

My Toy said:
Out of curiosity how and where do you self stamp an 80% handgun lower or 80% rifle lower?

polymer80 includes a blank plate embedded in the polymer.

80% ar15 lowers have plenty of real-estate, usually on the mag well.

edit: maybe you're asking where to get it done? IIRC there's a thread here, but you could do it yourself if you can meet the regulations.

letter/number punches can be had from various places, but i wouldn't do a polymer80 that way - seek out a laser engraver

3paul10 · Apr 19, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
Do they need a search warrant when they have PC?

No.

Bolts Rock · Apr 19, 2018

My Toy said:
Out of curiosity how and where do you self stamp an 80% handgun lower or 80% rifle lower?

whistlersmother said:
polymer80 includes a blank plate embedded in the polymer.

80% ar15 lowers have plenty of real-estate, usually on the mag well.

edit: maybe you're asking where to get it done? IIRC there's a thread here, but you could do it yourself if you can meet the regulations.

letter/number punches can be had from various places, but i wouldn't do a polymer80 that way - seek out a laser engraver

As mentioned lots of places on the lower to mark it. Four ways to do it.

1- impact stamps. Cheap, DIY, can be sloppy, can break your lower if you hit it wrong.

2- professional rotary engraving. Can be expensive, some will do it, some won't.

3- professional laser engraving. Not as expensive as rotary, not usually very deep (some does meet ATF .003" minimum depth), many cannot do it on receivers in the white.

4- electro-etch. Can be done on the cheap, DIY, in the IP section SOTAR has a thread on it (although it seems the stencil maker linked is no longer in business or at least does not answer emails). You really need adhesive vinyl stencils for deep etching, multi-use non-adhesive photo resist type does not work well. Most adhesive photo resist stencils will not work, they either need to be ironed on then exposed and developed with chemicals that attack aluminum or they are for sand blast etching and are water soluble (a problem since salt water or salt vinegar is the etchant).

After two weeks of intensive search I've given up on the etching route as nobody I have found in the US can cut a decent letter stencil under .17" high, standard AR markings are usually .08" high. I have found a local rotary engraver who will do it at $30/receiver. Once that's done a local metal finisher will do a Mil-Std Type III hard coat for me (batch of 1-12 for $195) but receivers must have unique identifiers for internal tracking since they also happen to be the folks that do Bushmaster, DPMS and Remington receivers.

PS- local for me is north Alabama.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 20, 2018

Bolts indeed outlined how to meet ATF standards in above post .

BUT , unless your homebuilt will subsequently be going thru NFA process , there are no standards for marking somthing that is not required to be marked . Whatever you put upon your creation is simply for your convience and enjoyment .

frogman68 · Apr 20, 2018

jrumann59 said:
would a rifle bag in plain sight = gun in plain sight?

A guy in Jersey had a pistol in a shaving kit bag. Courts agreed that gave the officer PC , cop said it "looked" like a pistol case. MD mi be different but not by much

eruby · Apr 20, 2018

esqappellate said:
Speaking for myself, I am actually not required to actually answer any questions. I have to produce my license, registration and proof of insurance, if driving. To all other questions, I can simply say: Officer, no disrespect, but I would like to be on my way. Am I free to go or am I being detained? Repeat. And, if necessary, repeat again. The more conversation I engage in the more likely I will say something that could trigger further questions and down the rabbit hole I go. The right not to answer is there to protect the innocent. See Grunewald v. United States, 353 U.S. 391 (1957) ("'one of the basic functions of the privilege’ is ‘to protect ‘the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances'"). If I am being detained, then if want to assert my right to silence, I would be required (under Salinas v. Texas,133 S.Ct. 2174 (2013)) to assert my 5th Amendment right to silence expressly and expressly decline to answer further questions without the assistance of legal counsel. The invocation of my Sixth Amendment right to legal counsel is particularly appropriate. This is not legal advice.

Post of the year!!!!!!

jtb81100 · Apr 20, 2018

Any firearm I may own that is covered by a strange law has a printout of that law in its case.

CharlieFoxtrot · Apr 20, 2018

kenpo333 said:
IANAL but I do believe that Maryland is a Upon Request state which means that if stopped you do not have to announce you have a fire arm but if asked You are supposed to tell them. Don't now what the consequences are if you lie.

It's not legally required. As others have said my (truthful) answer if stopped in Maryland and asked will be "Officer there is nothing illegal in this vehicle." Only exception is if I think that due to what's happening the officer might see the firearm- like the earlier glove box example or I am carrying. Then I will disclose in advance so as to avoid any unpleasant surprises.

DraKhen99 · Apr 20, 2018

I have a slightly off-topic question to ask, based on what I've seen in person and on TV/Movies (the latter of which I know it's just make-believe):

What if you're pulled over while transporting and they want to lay out your firearms on the hood/trunk/roof of your vehicle? Is it OK to ask for them to lay it on a towel or something so the guns don't scratch the paint?

It always irks me when I see people put boxes and other objects on the hood/roof/trunk of their car (or worse, someone else's car).

-John

swinokur · Apr 21, 2018

You mean like this?
.

My Toy · Apr 21, 2018

rob-cubed said:
Back to the original question: while there is nothing in law that requires a home-made firearm to bear a serial number... I seriously doubt most folks at the MSP Firearms Division, much less a standard beat cop, know the laws as well as some of us do. It may be legal, but if seized erroneously it's still your problem to get it back.

I stamped everything I rolled myself, just because.

Biggfoot44 said:
Bolts indeed outlined how to meet ATF standards in above post .

BUT , unless your homebuilt will subsequently be going thru NFA process , there are no standards for marking somthing that is not required to be marked . Whatever you put upon your creation is simply for your convience and enjoyment .

Sooooo, I guess what this boils down to is that if you are stopped by the police and your 80% lower becomes know to the officer because of the circumstance --even if you have your 80% lower serial numbered-- there is no way they can "run" the serial number because it doesn't exist in any data base. So as a builder of an 80% lower it is a waste of time and money having some third party apply an ATF approved serial number on to your lower (as long as it is only going to be for your personal use) not to mention that your information may be retained by the third party and become available to others.
What seems to be prudent is to apply some unique marking/series of numbers in an inconspicuous location on the lower that you could identify to prove you own it in the event your lower is stolen or erroneously confiscated.

DraKhen99 · Apr 23, 2018

swinokur said:
You mean like this?
.

Yep, just like that. I hope they wouldn't lay out my gun(s) on the painted surfaces of my truck... that s**t drives me nuts.

-John

lazarus · Apr 23, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
I was stopped on 95S, after Maryland lied about seat belts being a secondary offense, and was asked by a state trooper if I had guns in my vehicle.

I said yes. And that was the end of it. Did I have to answer? I don't know.

What I do know is The U.S. Constitution means jack crap when pulled over. The police hold all the cards. So it's yes, sir and no, sir and being on my merry way.

If an officer asks you a question you can refuse to answer (I suggest doing so in a polite way). You cannot lie to them. Remember, police can lie to you, you cannot lie to police. The most you can do is not offer information or answer questions.

Maryland, at least without a W&C (no idea on rules for W&C), is not a state that requires you to provide information if there are firearms in the vehicle if stopped. Many states DO require you to inform the officer in a traffic stop. My 2 cents with states like that, if you are covered by FOPA then you are covered by FOPA and you don’t offer any information. If your vehicle is searched answer whatever questions politely or ask for an attorney if for no other reason than to clarify local law for you (because police won’t, or at least you cannot rely on them to. See above, police can lie to you).

swinokur · Apr 23, 2018

And you can also legally invoke your constitutionally protected right to remain silent and answer NO questions.

hi3cho · Apr 25, 2018

Is there a AG Opinion or ATF bulletin that shows that a serial number is not required for a 'homemade' firearm? Kind of like the loaded magazine AG opinion, you could carry something similar. At this point you might as well have a binder with the convoluted md gun laws because most traffic cops are not going to be up to date on all of the current laws.

Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

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