SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    When going all MSI on some of my PG aquaintances I point out on the shall/may/no issue map that the only areas that need restrictions are where they live. I love to point out how the DC city council would rather see them disarmed than with the vote.
     

    Porsche

    Around...
    Jul 7, 2010
    125
    I looked into the judge but didn't see much there. So much of the landscape has changed in the last two years that even a judge who ruled against 2A rights in the past could be called "conservative" in the sense that they were just following the law as it existed at the time. The perfect judge does just that - and the law in MD clearly stated we had no 2A rights, and the federal view was that 2A also did not apply to the states. Remember, the Bill of Rights does not apply to the states until pieces were incorporated - and we just got this in June. So there are judges out there who just followed the law; making a pro-2A decision would have been the epitome of "activist judge".

    There are exceptional cases. Some judges on both sides really could care less about the law. I don't think we're looking at one of them here.

    That's why this case/these cases are so key - they will establish the law that judges will use to evaluate future issues. It's also why things are going so slow - good judges don't want to rush into something and potentially set a bad precedent that will need to be undone later on (as well as the legion of cases that lean on its rulings). Think of Heller/McDonald as the cases that cleaned the slate. It's now time to redraw the lines.

    We all gripe (me too) about the time it is taking for some courts to rule (Palmer/Nordyke/Sykes,etc.) but the truth is that they are taking time for a reason. It's not everyday that you get to rule on an issue that will likely draw lines on a newly-recognized fundamental right. And they all know that their rulings are highly likely to be reviewed by the Supreme Court at some point. They'd prefer to get it right.

    But MD/Chicago and the like...just plain delay tactics. Its not about getting the law right - it's about causing disruption. They need the smackdown.



    Sorry to have been obtuse in my earlier post.

    What I meant was a combination of what was already mentioned by others, plus an observation that this issue (may-issue) has been challenged elsewhere - in some cases, years earlier. So there are cases much further along than MD and they should see a ruling sooner than we do.

    The first winners/losers get to lead the fight up the pole to the Supreme Court. That is a ton of work. Not only that, being anti-2A could turn out to be politically dangerous some day in the future. As it stands, this is a civil right. Granted, many in MD do not see it that way today (and some would likely take umbrage at the term being applied to 2A itself), but facts is facts. Once you tell the people they have the "right to do something", history suggests that you are treading on thin ice opposing their right (even if it is not their will).

    So going slow in MD means that there is likely to be some case law from another case that addresses this issue soon. Why make a big fight now when you can let another court make the decision and then just pull a "what they said" response?

    That could even work in our favor, provided the AG decides to accept a pro-2A decision "as a matter of law". The whole issue of 2A "rights" is a potential hot potato politically. MD is not about to turn to guns overnight - it could take a few years for residents to embrace the right, but history says they eventually will. How long? Probably about the same number of years it would take an enthusiastic AG to make a run for governor...

    Thanks for clearing that up for me. I honestly am amazed at your amount of knowledge on the subject. If you dont mind me asking, how do you know so much about all of this?
     

    Bikebreath

    R.I.P.
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 30, 2009
    14,836
    in the bowels of Baltimore
    I completely disagree. Fear is chipped away marginally.

    Take my wife for instance. She's not anti, just doesn't like 'em, period. She's fearful of firearms, but only to the point that she doesn't understand them. It's 1000% irrational, but she tolerates my ownership. She is not appreciative of me carrying (yet). She think it is dangerous, perhaps arrogant, and unnecessary. Needless to say, we disagree at how safe the world is.

    I got the chance to CC for the first time yesterday in VA. It was liberating and nerve racking all at once, but, it was completely 100000% uneventful. As I read earlier today, 99% of the time (or even more so, the limit of 100%) you will never need to use it, but it is always better to be prepared when trouble finds you. Perhaps she sees this as me looking for trouble, I'm not sure.

    At any rate, considering we were out in my dad's car, and she did not watch me arm myself, she had no clue. Sweatshirt over it, no printing, no clue. None. She was not fearful of something she didn't even know was within such close proximity. In time, she will become numb to it, as it will be proven that it is 100% safe, and provides for security of me, her, and our family. The fact that my dad now plans to get his Virginia Non-Res permit, will only reinforce this notion. The normal people that you would assume are antis out there, will become numb to what they don't see (out of sight out of mind). Of course, they will reap the benefits of reduced crime, which will certainly be claimed by those in power as their sole doing.


    Are you sure about that percentage? I'm gonna say 95%, because even thought my Swiss Army Knife is "100%" safe I still cut my dumb self with it sometimes.

    As to the anti's not increasing in ranks once 2A is restored, I'd be happy if they didn't counter-attack and could return to my TV and beer. :D
     

    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    Are you sure about that percentage? I'm gonna say 95%, because even thought my Swiss Army Knife is "100%" safe I still cut my dumb self with it sometimes.

    As to the anti's not increasing in ranks once 2A is restored, I'd be happy if they didn't counter-attack and could return to my TV and beer. :D

    Don't forget that Cop that shot himself in the leg reholstering. After all he was the only one there qualified to handle such things.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    Thanks for clearing that up for me. I honestly am amazed at your amount of knowledge on the subject. If you dont mind me asking, how do you know so much about all of this?

    Thanks for the kind words.

    I do what anyone else interested in this stuff does: read. I have about 24" of shelf space behind me dedicated to various apolitical tomes on various parts of US history, the law and how it applies (and was meant to apply) to the people. I am not scholar, just a minor amateur who has a keyboard and once had a lot more time.

    Debate is another thing I like to do (though I am staying far from the Water Cooler on MDS forever more). I have a number of lawyer friends and it's fun to push their buttons. They tighten up my arguments, too. I spend a lot of time reading other viewpoints. Every now and then a good argument starts me down the road to a complete review of what I am thinking. Once or twice in my like I have shifted major viewpoints as a result.

    This is why I am so interested in getting people to understand the philosophy and history of 2A rights in this nation. Right now it's about the "gun nuts", "revolutionaries" and the "right-wing christian fascists".

    It is also about the 100-200 freedmen (former slaves) killed in one day at a Louisiana Courthouse in 1875 after being disarmed of their guns by law. It is also about the original intent of the "collective/militia" reading of 2A - to disarm populations of black men and put arms in the hands of state-sponsored "militias" who would disarm on Monday and then rape, rob, lynch and kill the rest of the week. And it is about a federal government that looked the other way many times, and even in banning the militias, gave birth to the Klan.

    So we're all in this together. The US Bill of Rights has always been called a "radical document", but people were talking about everything but guns. Some outside our union have even called our document dangerous.

    My personal belief is that the framers intentionally made it much more dangerous than even many in the USA accept. Intentionally arming a population specifically for the purpose of self defense and keeping two forms of government in check is a surely one of the most dangerous pillars of our national design.

    Yet somehow we flourish.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    Both of those suggestions make sense to me. The SAF also says "gun right" and "civil right" in the same breath. They say the operative word is "right". I'd also say we should step back from words like "Second Amendment" because of the knee-jerk reaction you get. Maybe "Right of Self Defense"?

    I don't know. I'd personally like to figure out the term that delivers the message without evoking defensive reactions from those who fought the "the true civil rights" battles (to see how easy it is to get thrown by that, watch this thread devolve into comparisons...).

    It's a topic for another thread (sorry - did not mean to thread-jack). I just brought it up here as a side-comment on the fact the MD AG might be playing with political fire if: people realize they have this right; and resent those who want to remove any right from them (even one they themselves do not exercise). Suspect he knows it, too. But this all assumes education takes place first.

    Heaven forbid, we use the correct term - "God-given Right".
     

    Hyper-W

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 24, 2010
    1,189
    Cooksville
    jzarrabi said:
    Thanks for clearing that up for me. I honestly am amazed at your amount of knowledge on the subject. If you dont mind me asking, how do you know so much about all of this?

    I agree. Patrick, your insight and explanations of this has been beneficial to many of us. I personally owe my understanding of the process to your posts. Thanks!
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    Are you sure about that percentage? I'm gonna say 95%, because even thought my Swiss Army Knife is "100%" safe I still cut my dumb self with it sometimes.

    As to the anti's not increasing in ranks once 2A is restored, I'd be happy if they didn't counter-attack and could return to my TV and beer. :D
    Yes, there are accidents, I am not discounting that. But, the point is, if proper care is taken, almost all of the time, it is safe.

    Genuinely, it is something completely asinine and stupid that causes an accidental discharge of a firearm with today's modern handguns. Ala Plexico Burress.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    Thanks for the kind words.

    I do what anyone else interested in this stuff does: read. I have about 24" of shelf space behind me dedicated to various apolitical tomes on various parts of US history, the law and how it applies (and was meant to apply) to the people. I am not scholar, just a minor amateur who has a keyboard and once had a lot more time.

    Debate is another thing I like to do (though I am staying far from the Water Cooler on MDS forever more). I have a number of lawyer friends and it's fun to push their buttons. They tighten up my arguments, too. I spend a lot of time reading other viewpoints. Every now and then a good argument starts me down the road to a complete review of what I am thinking. Once or twice in my like I have shifted major viewpoints as a result.

    This is why I am so interested in getting people to understand the philosophy and history of 2A rights in this nation. Right now it's about the "gun nuts", "revolutionaries" and the "right-wing christian fascists".

    It is also about the 100-200 freedmen (former slaves) killed in one day at a Louisiana Courthouse in 1875 after being disarmed of their guns by law. It is also about the original intent of the "collective/militia" reading of 2A - to disarm populations of black men and put arms in the hands of state-sponsored "militias" who would disarm on Monday and then rape, rob, lynch and kill the rest of the week. And it is about a federal government that looked the other way many times, and even in banning the militias, gave birth to the Klan.

    So we're all in this together. The US Bill of Rights has always been called a "radical document", but people were talking about everything but guns. Some outside our union have even called our document dangerous.

    My personal belief is that the framers intentionally made it much more dangerous than even many in the USA accept. Intentionally arming a population specifically for the purpose of self defense and keeping two forms of government in check is a surely one of the most dangerous pillars of our national design.

    Yet somehow we flourish.
    It is dangerous to those who usurp and abuse their power for personal gain or pleasure.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    And there is this today...

    http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/10/challenge-to-ban-on-firearms-on-postal.html

    Challenge to Ban on Firearms on Postal Service Property

    Attorney Jim Manley and the Mountain States Legal Foundation are taking on the US Postal Service's ban on any firearm on USPS property. The challenge is on behalf of Debbie and Tab Bonidy of Avon, Colorado and the National Association for Gun Rights. A lawsuit, Bonidy et al v. USPS et al, was filed Monday in U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado.

    Just another domino and now there are the local attorney's forging ahead without Gura and Co. This will become the norm.
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    Heaven forbid, we use the correct term - "God-given Right".

    That term does very little to separate us from the stereotype of "Bible beating gun nut." We're easy to dismiss when we're viewed as rednecks in overalls, flannel underwear and camo tshirts with a gun in one hand and the Bible in the other.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the clownish stereotype is not conducive to bringing about the average person to equating my right to carry a gun (as well as his right not to do so, if he chooses) with his right to speak freely, even if I choose to keep my mouth shut.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    That term does very little to separate us from the stereotype of "Bible beating gun nut." We're easy to dismiss when we're viewed as rednecks in overalls, flannel underwear and camo tshirts with a gun in one hand and the Bible in the other.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the clownish stereotype is not conducive to bringing about the average person to equating my right to carry a gun (as well as his right not to do so, if he chooses) is as important as his right to speak freely, even if I choose to keep my mouth shut.

    Understand. My point is that you cannot call it what it really is, without drawing flack from the PC crowd.
     

    krucam

    Ultimate Member
    And there is this today...

    http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2010/10/challenge-to-ban-on-firearms-on-postal.html



    Just another domino and now there are the local attorney's forging ahead without Gura and Co. This will become the norm.

    Thanks for the lead! Updated on my 2A Summary Page, Sensitive Areas subsection. I need to get onto that blog more often...a great resource. A nice quip at the bottom of the article:
    In a parenthetical note, this is the first time that I am aware that the National Association for Gun Rights (NAGR) has been a party to any post-McDonald litigation. Due to their sensationalist "alerts" on Rep. Bobby Rush's HR 45 as a means of fund-raising, they have not been taken too seriously in the past. If this lawsuit marks a change in their direction, so much the better.
    :innocent0
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Fear is chipped away marginally

    Yes. Time is needed for people to become "comfortable" with the concept.

    I got the chance to CC for the first time yesterday in VA. It was liberating and nerve racking all at once, but, it was completely 100000% uneventful. As I read earlier today, 99% of the time (or even more so, the limit of 100%) you will never need to use it, but it is always better to be prepared when trouble finds you. Perhaps she sees this as me looking for trouble, I'm not sure.

    I had my 1st OC in VA a couple weeks ago, and as brief as it was, I understand. One thing I tell folks about my owning guns, is, "It's just another tool I hope never to have to use for its intended purpose."

    She was not fearful of something she didn't even know was within such close proximity. In time, she will become numb to it, as it will be proven that it is 100% safe, and provides for security of me, her, and our family.

    If we are "granted" the rights we were promised would be secured 234 years back, this should become the norm. As it is, we are forced to look on it as an exception.
     
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