AR-15 Home Defense / Scoped combo

amish · Nov 10, 2008

First off, I think I've started an EBR craze with my friends, not that is a bad thing. I got got my first AR-15 just a couple months ago, and now 2 of my friends one one, along with my parents.

The question... my parents want one that is suitable for home defense and enjoyable to take to the range. They want a flashlight, laser sight, and foregrip for home defense, and a low power scope for range shooting (normally out to 100 yds).

What I've configured/recommended is a RRA mid-length gas 16" barrel, A3 upper, quad-rail hand guard, w/ collapsible stock.

They aren't exactly sure if they want to use a handgun or ar-15 for home defense, so I recommended this light so it can be used interchangeably (also thinking of picking one up for my own glock):
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=894936

As for the scope, I'm lost cause I've never dealt with one before. So some questions I couldn't answer:

1) If you have a scope and a front iron sight... will the front iron sight get in the way and mess up the sight picture.

2) What's a good scope to get?!

He looks at videos of troops in Iraq on TV and sees the Trijicon (1-4x?) scope they use. I looked up the price and it starts at $800, and it's illuminated which isn't needed.

I guess what I'm asking is, how do you pick out a scope for an AR-15? I'm not sure what the importance is in the diameter of the tube and the openings. I've figured out what the eye relief means, so what is required for the AR?

ANY thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Half-cocked · Nov 10, 2008

For home defense / 100 yard shooting, you don't really need a scope at all; either iron sights or a red dot sight will do just fine. If you want to hit varmints or eggs or other small targets within that range, then a simple 2x-4x scope will do nicely but will slow down target acquisition a little bit vs. 1X (i.e. iron or non-magnified red dot) sights.

As to using a scope with the front sight, the sight will disappear when your eye focuses on the target. Even with a 1x red-dot sight the dot appears to float "out there" with the target, so your eye focuses well beyond the front sight and your brain simply tunes it out.

Dizzy · Nov 10, 2008

For home defense, iron sight or red dot sight would do just fine. In such close quarters, it'll be hard to miss. You should worry more about over-penetration if you do miss the perp.

amish · Nov 10, 2008

Half-cocked said:
For home defense / 100 yard shooting, you don't really need a scope at all; either iron sights or a red dot sight will do just fine. If you want to hit varmints or eggs or other small targets within that range, then a simple 2x-4x scope will do nicely but will slow down target acquisition a little bit vs. 1X (i.e. iron or non-magnified red dot) sights.

As to using a scope with the front sight, the sight will disappear when your eye focuses on the target. Even with a 1x red-dot sight the dot appears to float "out there" with the target, so your eye focuses well beyond the front sight and your brain simply tunes it out.

I guess I should have added that he is getting older with poorer vision and developing cataracts. Prior to shooting my AR-15, he has only shot iron sights and complained about lining them up. It's been his dream to have something, anything, with a scope just to play with that.

I have an EOTech on my AR-15. He did well with it at 50 yds, but at 100 yds he said the red image was very blurry and large, so large it completely covered the target. I think his eye was just having trouble focusing on the point in the distance.

I agree that a red dot would be perfect for CQC, and even work to 100+, but it's his dream, so I'm thinking a 1-4x would work. Target acquisition at the range wouldn't be an issue since it would be bench rest shots. And in the home, you got the laser sight to assist (theoretically).

amish · Nov 10, 2008

DizzyV6P said:
For home defense, iron sight or red dot sight would do just fine. In such close quarters, it'll be hard to miss. You should worry more about over-penetration if you do miss the perp.

Good point about over-penetration. Something that slipped my mind.

They don't want to spend too much cause they are saving, so they were looking at either an XDm or AR-15. Their theory is as they get older, a handgun is less fun at the range where as the AR-15 is more fun.

TOWcritter · Nov 10, 2008

You could mount a sight like this. CQB sight basically. Both eyes open. Gives a good quick fix on moving targets. Like the one that's going to be running away from them! I have one on my GSG5 and love it.

http://combatoptical.com/catalog/HK-GSG5-MP5-4-RETICLE-RED-DOT-SIGHT-WITH-LOW-MOUNT-COMBO-435.html

Jimbob2.0 · Nov 10, 2008

I am a fan of the AR but it isnt tops for home defense in my opinion, (property defense maybe

). A good handgun coupled with accessibility to a quality shotgun or carbine would be a better choice. Just a matter of the optimum tool for the job.

If they are insistant consider a carbine round or use only frangible rounds.

guthook · Nov 10, 2008

The true beauty of the AR platform is it's versitility. He could get a QD mount for his scope to remove it after the range to be ready for the BG's at home. A decent one should re-zero fairly well for 100yd work when you head back to the range.

A better idea is to get target barrelled upper which he could leave the scope on for range work and then swap it for the tacticool upper when he gets home.

As for penetration, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. (IMHO)

Rattlesnake46319 · Nov 10, 2008

Paging DD214... Don, what was the setup you had on your XCR at the Fall Shoot? Something similar might be what Amish is looking for.

guthook · Nov 10, 2008

TOWcritter said:
You could mount a sight like this. CQB sight basically. Both eyes open. Gives a good quick fix on moving targets. Like the one that's going to be running away from them! I have one on my GSG5 and love it.

http://combatoptical.com/catalog/HK-GSG5-MP5-4-RETICLE-RED-DOT-SIGHT-WITH-LOW-MOUNT-COMBO-435.html

+1, except being that I bought it at Fred's in Waldorf, I paid list price.

Mine has a little ghosting around the corners, but is decent for quick aquisition. It's mounted on one of my AR's right now.

RipkinC · Nov 11, 2008

Shotgun! That is if you really are in need of a HD gun. Add some nice furniture and a light and your set. They tend to have less over penetration, you can get ammo anywhere and its the most intimidating sound ever heard (next to the GF dad coming home/up to the stairs and you cant find your pants when you were in high school)
Use slugs if you want to go out to 100yrds, and you can get the guns for cheep, ask Dan at GC for a $200ish special, I love mine, Hit repeatedly a silhouette target at 100yrds with slugs, about a 6" group of almost 1" holes lode it with 1-Buck (best stopping vs. over penetrating power in a buckshot round) is best.

If you want a fun range gun than a $6-700 16” H-bar AR is in order, or a $300 SKS etc. But if you want it to do double duty and you have multiple rooms filled with people (sleeping) that .223 will go threw a lot before stopping, Know your backstop and aim true! I am not saying AR’s are not a good HD gun; they are just IMHO less bang for the buck when it comes to that. However at the range, nothing eats blowing threw 30rnds as fast as you can pull, Plus an EBR pisses off liberals
If you can only afford one though an EBR (AR) is probably the wisest choice incase the AWB is put back in, in a few months. And as for aiming devise on the AR, iron sights or Red dot.
Shotgun Aiming... Point it at them, or a nice set of "Ghost rings"

DD214 · Nov 11, 2008

Rattlesnake46319 said:
Paging DD214... Don, what was the setup you had on your XCR at the Fall Shoot? Something similar might be what Amish is looking for.

That is an EOTech HWS coupled with an EOTech 3x flip to side magnifier. Great setup.

amish · Nov 11, 2008

Jimbob2.0 said:
I am a fan of the AR but it isnt tops for home defense in my opinion, (property defense maybe ). A good handgun coupled with accessibility to a quality shotgun or carbine would be a better choice. Just a matter of the optimum tool for the job.

If they are insistant consider a carbine round or use only frangible rounds.

'insistant' is the word.

Basically they haven't been into guns in the last few years, and with my recent building up of an arsenal, especially the EBR, they are getting more interested. They don't want to spend much money at all, but at the same time believing in doing the job right the first time (quality scope, light, etc). So that means probably getting only one firearm. If it was me, I would use it as a great excuse to get another firearm for some dedicated task. I don't use one screwdriver for all jobs I need to do, I have several different ones for each unique task.

So they want something fun at the range, yet can also perform double duty and perform in home defense should the (unlikely) event arise.

They are sold on the AR-15 as far as long guns go. There is a debate between that an the XDm, however the EBR is winning right now.

Personally, it's not the optimum tool for the job, but I am trying to meet as many of their desires as possible.

amish · Nov 11, 2008

DD214 said:
That is an EOTech HWS coupled with an EOTech 3x flip to side magnifier. Great setup.

Dang it, I shouldn't have looked up that 3x flip to side magnifier. Now I want one for my setup.

Norton · Nov 11, 2008

The folks over at arfcom have been talking about this optic:

http://www.grsc.com/combatriflescope.php

1-4x with a CQB reticle similar to the IOR Valdada at half the price. Looks like they're asking $350 as an intro price, but that they might not actually be in hand yet to sell.

Failing that, if they have some more money to spend, I like the looks of the IOR CQB scope. Pricier, but should have better glass.

Slap that grsc scope in a quick detachable mount and you've got the best of all worlds.

BTW....for purely home defense, I would concur on the shotgun to start with but it sounds like they've made their mind up already on what they want.

NittanyLion · Nov 11, 2008

RipkinC said:
Shotgun! That is if you really are in need of a HD gun. Add some nice furniture and a light and your set. They tend to have less over penetration, you can get ammo anywhere and its the most intimidating sound ever heard (next to the GF dad coming home/up to the stairs and you cant find your pants when you were in high school)
Use slugs if you want to go out to 100yrds, and you can get the guns for cheep, ask Dan at GC for a $200ish special, I love mine, Hit repeatedly a silhouette target at 100yrds with slugs, about a 6" group of almost 1" holes lode it with 1-Buck (best stopping vs. over penetrating power in a buckshot round) is best.

+1 to the shotgun and :lol:

to the comment.

kohburn · Nov 11, 2008

within the 100 yard range and home defense a carbine using a hollow point pistol round would be a better idea IMO - less expensive, typically cheaper ammunition, less risk of over penetration...

if on a budget consider a saiga instead of an ar-15... they haven't been selling out like th ar's - can get it in the same ammunition size for only 300$

and if he ever wanted to make it scarier he could do the minor work to convert it to the AK grips/stock.

alucard0822 · Nov 11, 2008

There is nothing wrong with using an AR for home defense, and in many ways I think it is superior to a shotgun, or handgun. The beauty of 5.56/.223 is that it is a very fast round that basically fragments at close range, and really doesn't penetrate or overpenetrate any more than common handgun calibers, as the velocity destabilizes the bullet once it hits anything solid. Frangibles basically fragment as soon as they hit something, and may not penetrate deep enough to stop a threat, especially if it has to punch through a heavy winter jacket, but plain old XM193 penetrates sufficiently before it breaks up, and is probably the best round to use for home defense.

For a scope, if you use anything 4X or greater, you cannot see the front sight through it, and if you use a quick detachable base, you can take it on or off as needed, better bases however will keep the scope zeroed better after it has been removed and reinstalled. The larue tactical mounts are a little pricey, but are extremely consistent, and can be taken off and reinstalled hundreds of times without having to sight in the scope, and in most cases it may be 1" at 100yds off at most., quick detatch rings may be as much as 6" off after the scope is taken off, and put back on.

For a great 4X scope for the money, the Nikon prostaff costs about $100 and looks incredible, there is also a 3-9X version for $150, the monarch series is even better. All their scopes are crystal clear, and very bright, the controls are solid, and the scopes hold 0 very well. To top that scope IMO, you have to get into Leupold/Zeiss/Nightforce territory.

pauln · Nov 11, 2008

On one of my AR's I have a 4.5-14x scope mounted in the standard position and a C-More mounted on the free-float tube at about the 1:30 position for close range.
If you don't want an electronic sight, JP makes a short range iron sight set-up that can attach to the handguard in the same position.

AR-15 Home Defense / Scoped combo

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