Best defense bullet in .38/.357?

Trigger Time · Nov 19, 2018

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
If you can find any...out of production for some time now...try the Winchester 110 grain +P+ SJHP...it was known as the "Treasury Load" and was standard issue for the Secret Service prior to transitioning to .357 Sig. It's only safe to use in a revolver chambered for .357...a bit too much pressure for .38 Special chambered steel revolvers and way too much pressure for aluminum framed revolvers.

My snubby Python loves the +P+ stuff. I used to have a couple cases of the stuff but sold off most of it...just down to a couple of boxes now. If you can find the +P+ try it out.

This stuff was pushing 1350 fps over my F1 Crony from a 3" SP101, a very snappy round.

POP57 · Nov 19, 2018

Trigger Tuner said:
This stuff was pushing 1350 fps over my F1 Crony from a 3" SP101, a very snappy round.

Good to know.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 20, 2018

If you think you want Treasury Load , instead use WWB 110gr jhp .357 . A "medium" .357 load , less than 100fps difference between Treas Loads , depending on respective Lot numbers .

FWIW , I've seen the Federal version of Treasury Load a lot more recently than the W-W . But for current std production , if you want to channel your Treasury Load in .38spl casings , try Cor Bon 110gr .

Back during the late Revolver Era , the Treasury Loads the second most used LE loads , behind only the 158 Lead HP , and the results were generally good . The contrast between the two was lesser penetration from Treasury . But various agencies ( notably USSS ) who anticipated situations involving crowds of people considered that advantageous .

At the time , it was created using .38spl cases, because calibres that said " Magnum " were a political hot button . In modern times for Joe Blow citizen , just load medium .357s into your .357 gun.

Jake4U · Nov 20, 2018

danb said:
I am not sure about "gold standard" 30 years ago maybe. These days people want suppressed, and I find heavier bullets (subsonic (69gr) work best in my suppressed revolver. They wont hear the bullet coming so they cant jump out of the way. But maybe thats a topic for NFA subforum.

Suppressed revolver. I call BS. With the cylinder gap it just blows the gasses at your hand and anyone who owns NFA would know that.

danb · Nov 20, 2018

Jake4U said:
Suppressed revolver. I call BS. With the cylinder gap it just blows the gasses at your hand and anyone who owns NFA would know that.

no way! I have 3. quiet as a mouse!

:lol2:

Seriously, I see suppressed revolvers in movies and video games all the time, it must be true.

Jake4U · Nov 20, 2018

LOL. YA got me ...

Cold Steel · Nov 22, 2018

The 125-grain JHP is best out of a .357. The 148-grain SWCHP "FBI" load and 110-grain JHP loads out of a .38 Spc.

I had a friend who was a Treasury agent. He used the 110-grain JHP load and said they had good luck with it. They subsequently switched to .40 autos and at first thought they were the bee's knees, but after their hot JHPs failed to stop people, including a 46-year old "witch" with a knife, they wanted to switch to 9mm. Their firearms people did some research and found that a large number of police departments had been unhappy with the .40 and also switched to 9mm. Don't know if they ever did change, but my friend retired before they did.

Oddway Otts · Nov 23, 2018

So much information! My head is spinning. :confused:

Thank you for all of the input. While I sort everything out, for safety sake, maybe I'll switch the Judge for the Security-Six under the night stand home defender. Although, that could raise another question of which load is best. :banghead:

Of the three .357 types of ammo that I have (that I can hit well with), I think maybe I'll just alternate the semi-jacketed 158 gr. hollow point, the 158 grain semi-wadcutter and the 158 gr. semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, spin the cylinder and let the Fickle Finger of Fate decide what comes up first shot, should (God forbid) there has to be a first shot. :innocent6:

Still, I am going to check out some of those lighter bullets with the higher velocity both with two handed, line up the sights bulls-eye shots and the one hand, point and shoot silhouette shots. :bannana:

Biggfoot44 · Nov 25, 2018

Wow ! One handed at 50yd steel chickens !

( Not picking on you Otts , I just couldn't resist the straight line setting up some IHMSA humor

)

smokey · Nov 27, 2018

Oddway Otts said:
So much information! My head is spinning. Thank you for all of the input. While I sort everything out, for safety sake, maybe I'll switch the Judge for the Security-Six under the night stand home defender. Although, that could raise another question of which load is best. Of the three .357 types of ammo that I have (that I can hit well with), I think maybe I'll just alternate the semi-jacketed 158 gr. hollow point, the 158 grain semi-wadcutter and the 158 gr. semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, spin the cylinder and let the Fickle Finger of Fate decide what comes up first shot, should (God forbid) there has to be a first shot. Still, I am going to check out some of those lighter bullets with the higher velocity both with two handed, line up the sights bulls-eye shots and the one hand, point and shoot silhouette shots.

nahh... just use the best load for all trigger presses.... the HST. Biggest permanent crush cavity that penetrates reliably past 12". It's a pretty simple choice.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 27, 2018

Not going to touch the HST endorsement in this post , other than it is among the good choices, and a viable choice .

But Smokey is spot on , don't stagger load . Even if there were somthing to the concept , you'd have no guaranty of having more than one shot . Even if multiple shots, blind random luck if the various rounds cycled up in the sequence required at the time . Pick a ( good quality , at least reasonably effective , and shot well by you ) round, and load all chambers with that .

( Yes , I know there are 3 or so obscure footnote exceptions about stagger, but not relevant to this thread .)

alucard0822 · Nov 27, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Not going to touch the HST endorsement in this post , other than it is among the good choices, and a viable choice .

But Smokey is spot on , don't stagger load . Even if there were somthing to the concept , you'd have no guaranty of having more than one shot . Even if multiple shots, blind random luck if the various rounds cycled up in the sequence required at the time . Pick a ( good quality , at least reasonably effective , and shot well by you ) round, and load all chambers with that .

( Yes , I know there are 3 or so obscure footnote exceptions about stagger, but not relevant to this thread .)

Another issue is how different ammo plays together. Different loads can have a point of impact several inches apart, and some can cause issues. Had a cylinder jam up in my little J-frame with hot +P JHP mixed with 38 SWC, recoil from the hot stuff was pulling the cast bullets till one caught the side of the forcing cone and locked up the cylinder. There are a lot of choices in ammo, many suggested in this thread, some of the best loads from 40+ years ago, and then there are HSTs

Simple answer is carry a load that you are comfortable with, and shoot enough of it to be confident in it.

outrider58 · Nov 27, 2018

Any bow hunter knows, shot placement is everything. All else is incidental.

Bisleyfan44 · Nov 27, 2018

outrider58 said:
Any bow hunter knows, shot placement is everything. All else is incidental.

^^ so true ^^

Bisleyfan44 · Nov 27, 2018

No HST load in 357. There is one for the 38 special, however.

alucard0822 · Nov 28, 2018

Bisleyfan44 said:
No HST load in 357. There is one for the 38 special, however.

That is the way to go, really good performance at mild 38+p blast/recoil, and being shorter, they load and eject a lot easier. Would take a lot more than mediocre performance from 70's bullet tech to justify the downsides of going up to 357mag IMO.

moose&squirrel · Nov 28, 2018

I load Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain FTX in .357 for defense.

Oddway Otts · Nov 28, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Wow ! One handed at 50yd steel chickens !

( Not picking on you Otts , I just couldn't resist the straight line setting up some IHMSA humor )

I had to read both posts several time before I got it. :innocent0

Ya got me! :lol2:

smokey · Nov 29, 2018

Cold Steel · Nov 29, 2018

Oddway Otts said:
...maybe I'll switch the Judge for the Security-Six under the night stand home defender. ...I think maybe I'll just alternate the semi-jacketed 158 gr. hollow point, the 158 grain semi-wadcutter and the 158 gr. semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, spin the cylinder and let the Fickle Finger of Fate decide.

I know of no 158-grain JHP load out of a .38 or a .357 that will go a good job and expand. According Massad Ayoob, the 158 JHP .357 overpenetrates like crazy and won't expand. The lead FBI load does a great job, but the jacketed bullets just don't tend to open up in the human body. In .357s, the 125gr JHP works extremely well and no one really complained of the blast and the kick back in the late 70s, when I got into handguns and gun magazines. In the heat of combat, no one really says afterwards, "Oooh, that load was really tough on my hand, or, "Boy, that load was loud!" I talked to a man years ago who was charged by a grizzly, and he unloaded his .44 Magnum into the animal. Afterwards, he had no memory at all of having fired those rounds. He thought he'd only fired three rounds, but they showed him that all his rounds were spent.

"Did you have any ringing in the ears," I asked.

"None," he said. "I was terrified. All I remember is seeing that bear." (I also spoke to another man who had been charged by a grizzly while he was in his car. He even had a photo of the charging bear, which he had no memory of having taken. The whole side of his car was bent in and a cop followed him for miles with his cruiser's red and blue lights on and honking at him. He finally pulled over and he didn't know how far he'd come nor was he aware of the police behind him. He was totally on auto-pilot. The rental company didn't have the car repaired but instead displayed it, even sending it to different rental offices throughout Alaska.)

Boy, did I get off track! Anyway, I'd stick to the lighter bullets for people and heavier bullets for animals. Even 125gr JHP bullets launched from a .357 can to through vehicles and kill people, but 158gr JHP bullets need more space to expand. That's why for defense I'm not very trustful of them.

Best defense bullet in .38/.357?

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