Game farms...

Rather than continue with the hijack of the camera thread I thought I'd start a new one devoted to this controversial subject.

Now... There will NEVER be a solution to this except that which each of us resolves in our own hearts. The fact though that this came up, with such vehement opinions against it, on a thread about photos taken (most at least) over bait and most of those posting those photos will be sitting over the same bait on opening day, is just too ironic and hypocritical for words.

I have NO ISSUE with hunting over bait. Its legal and has now become "tradition" in this state. ...except for migratory fowl, where it was deemed unethical almost 100 years ago and bears more recently.
How many of you have ever, or would go on a RSA hunt for pen reared game birds?

How about going to Maine or Canada to sit over a metal drum full of stale donuts?

Even if you're not hunting right over the bait, if there is bait or some other something on the property where you hunt to artificially entice game to use that property, how is that better? If you sit by the trail to the feeder, how's that more ethical than sitting on top the barrel?

Deciding what another's "ethics" should be is a very slippery slope! I'm not denouncing any of the things mentioned above but when someone makes a comment about ANY high fence being unethical, without qualification, I see red.
You see, I've hunted fenced ranches. They were larger than most of our WMA's with ONE FENCE around the perimeter. It was all on foot, spot & stalk. No feeders or even stands.
Most whitetails (for instance) will never travel more than a mile or two from where they were born. If they're born inside a fenced ranch of thousands of acres, the deer might never realize it! Is that unethical? Something you'd never do because the deer doesn't have the option of taking off cross-country one day?

To each his own. Whether you agree or not, makes no difference to me but I urge you to think carefully before you decide on such things. Today, RSA hunting is essentially the only upland bird hunting around (no, I've never been on one, but I'd go if invited). If its not your cup of tea that's fine with me but if YOU decide someone else can't do it either... consider that train of thought in regard to other things, say someone who has no interest in firearms deciding that nobody else needs them either.

"RSA"? Republic of South Africa??

mikec said:

"RSA"? Republic of South Africa??

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Nee! nie Suid Afrika

RSA in Maryland is a Regulated Shooting Area = bird hunting preserve.

I have however hunted behind fences in ZA (South Africa). It was 4,000ha. No feeders. No elevated stands. No hunting from bakies or quads, no hunting over or near waterholes, etc... Is THAT unethical?

I've shot plenty of times on a large, private, fenced reserve that's not in MD. If you have a fat wallet (not me), hunting is occasionally allowed for a single buck (that live there in the forest). Most hunting there is upland birding, a few times per year. There are no bait stands or other baiting. The setting is natural. I have no problem with it. Nothing is easy about it for taking birds. Anyone who thinks it's shooting fish in a barrel would be very mistaken. It's much safer than risking being shot by joe six pack on state land.

About to put in a food plot so is that the same as baiting with corn? So is hunting under a oak tree that has it's acorns fall any different from any kind of baiting???

You don't need corn on a high fence farm cause you already know where they are. Putting corn out doesnt guarantee a deer will come in at 5:03pm every single night. Hunting inside a fence guarantees the deer will be inside that fence. If you enjoy it go for it, but don't equate baiting to putting a leash on a deer and attaching it to a corn pile.

mark71211 said:

About to put in a food plot so is that the same as baiting with corn? So is hunting under a oak tree that has it's acorns fall any different from any kind of baiting???

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I guess my headlights bait the deer to cross the road in front of me too! I dont see what the big deal is about baiting...its not like deer are endangered A person can use bait to catch fish all day and thats ok.....but some states its illegal to bait deer...

itsslow98 said:

You don't need corn on a high fence farm cause you already know where they are. Putting corn out doesnt guarantee a deer will come in at 5:03pm every single night. Hunting inside a fence guarantees the deer will be inside that fence. If you enjoy it go for it, but don't equate baiting to putting a leash on a deer and attaching it to a corn pile.

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wilcam47 said:

I guess my headlights bait the deer to cross the road in front of me too! I dont see what the big deal is about baiting...its not like deer are endangered A person can use bait to catch fish all day and thats ok.....but some states its illegal to bait deer...

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The justifications being used in recent posts such as these, emphasize exactly what I'm talking about! WHERE DOES THE LINE GET DRAWN? And most importantly, WHO gets to draw it?
The smallest "fenced farm" I've hunted was over 2,000ha. of bush. That's over 5000 acres! That's larger than most of our WMA's in Maryland. If you think anybody knew exactly where the game was at any particular time it would have had to be Miss Cleo.

Isslow98 and wilcam47, I apologize for using your quotes. I'm not bust'n on you guys, its just that your scenarios show that whatever the reasoning, it must be relevant to the particular situation. Sure, shooting game enclosed in a two acre pen is a whole lot different than hunting game living on a thousand acre parcel, ...which just happens to have a fence around it. You see, most animals have a comfort zone. A "home range" they are very reluctant to leave whether there are physical restraints such as a fence or not. They will retreat to a "safe place" (often we call these bedding areas) when threatened but it is rare they will leave their home range totally.
The use of some artificial attractant is much more likely to alter natural habits than a fence surrounding a suitable sized area. The attractant can be food, scent, sexual or anything that draws and/or holds the animals. These things are (generally, at least in MD.) legal and hence considered "ethical" locally.
Many states, do prohibit baiting (deer for instance) and it is considered un-ethical by most hunters from there, whether done there or here where its perfectly legal.

I think we could all agree that hunting where game are essentially held physically captive for shooting (small enclosures) is in poor taste. 200+ hunters on roughly 500 sq. miles of land may justify outlawing baiting of bears (as in MD.). Put the same 200 hunters on 5000 sq. miles of bear habitat and finding a bear (ME, etc.) become less likely without an edge such as bait.
Here in MD. the use of bait for deer is often more about drawing them from where they can't be shot to where they can. Without the artificial attractants, the deer may lay comfortably, within sight but safely across an invisible boundary.
Am I making sense? The wide brush technique is a dangerous path in these discussions.

wilcam47 said:

A person can use bait to catch fish all day and thats ok.....but some states its illegal to bait deer...

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Seriously? Come on man! Comparing fish to deer is comparing apples to oranges.

Dantheman said:

Seriously? Come on man! Comparing fish to deer is comparing apples to oranges.

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so if you find a feeding area in the woods arent you taking advantage of bait? All I'm saying is I dont see the big deal in using bait...it should be legal in all states...

I agree that comparing fishing to hunting is over the top. Two totally different things.

The reference to hunting over a (natural) food source found in the woods compared to making one (bait pile or feeder) is the edge of the slippery slope I see this whole discussion as.

Personally, I could care less. I much prefer to hunt by spot and stalk but that's not very practical locally. As mentioned before, "baiting" in Maryland is often a matter of getting the deer where they can be shot from somewhere they can't. Particularly in the more urban counties.

How about driving though? Anyone ever consider the ethics of this old traditional method? After all, you're taking advantage of the animals flight response.

Ethics, et. al. is a moving target. Something that changes with time, region, tradition, local standards, etc. It was only a couple generations ago that baiting waterfowl, live decoys, etc. was perfectly acceptable. What is and isn't acceptable will continue to change. Those who demand their own standards be accepted by others will drive the bus. ...whether right or wrong.

Well i do bait with corn every year but its only to get the deer to stop long enough for me to size the deer and take a shot. Going to put in some food plots this year cause of where I hunt its nothing but pine tree. I want to give the deer something to eat all year long to help out with the herd down there but i'm still baiting with corn every fall

itsslow98 said:

You don't need corn on a high fence farm cause you already know where they are. Putting corn out doesnt guarantee a deer will come in at 5:03pm every single night. Hunting inside a fence guarantees the deer will be inside that fence. If you enjoy it go for it, but don't equate baiting to putting a leash on a deer and attaching it to a corn pile.

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Excellent reply. I will back this 1000%. I do also put corn out, HOWEVER, the fact is this, Deer do not come to it all of the time and the bigger fact is I usually end up killing my seasonal deer in a ground blind far away from my corn. Corn resolves nothing but the occasional chance encounter with a deer.

The main reason I even bother with Corn at all is to see what might happen by on my camera. I do not spend the majority of my time hunting over, or depending on, that corn. That's just silly thinking.

Usually the deer I end up shooting is not even a deer I have been watching or seen repeatedly. Corn is not a guarantee by any stretch of the imagination.

A fence... well, that's made to keep things enclosed in a certain space.

mark71211 said:

About to put in a food plot so is that the same as baiting with corn? So is hunting under a oak tree that has it's acorns fall any different from any kind of baiting???

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Depends on how you look at it. Planting a long term crop can be considered baiting. Acorns is not bait. Acorns do not get replenished through the Winter. They are a once-and-done food source not put there on purpose by a Hunter.

Now getting back to the subject. I believe this thread was debating fences and game farms and not baiting deer and where fishing came in to this I have no idea, but, fishing is completely irrelevant to the issue.

wilcam47 said:

so if you find a feeding area in the woods arent you taking advantage of bait? All I'm saying is I dont see the big deal in using bait...it should be legal in all states...

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I don't see that there any advantages to baiting personally as a private land owner. I do know that Baiting in Maryland is a direct result of over-population in this state. Besides you can not bait on state / public lands, so, who it benefits is a very very small group.

SOMDSHOOT said:

A fence... well, that's made to keep things enclosed in a certain space.

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Yes, I totally agree! It is THE SIZE OF THE "SPACE" that I am suggesting makes a HUGE difference in the acceptability of fencing! I'm right with ya in regard to small enclosures. Where thousands of acres are involved however, the situation is totally different. The one caveat would be where the fence is used to advantage. Herding game against/along the fence, etc. is wrong.

Hunting in the middle of 1000+ acres by the same means you would w/o a perimeter fence however, I fail to see the advantage. Yes, you know that game is there, but you know game are present on your own property to. You just said so!

Again, I'm not defending canned hunting, I'm merely stressing that "ALL FENCED PROPERTY" is not the same! We could condemn a lot of things because some misuse them. If we made such gross generalizations however, we might as well wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and find a warm spot.

oupa said:

Yes, I totally agree! It is THE SIZE OF THE "SPACE" that I am suggesting makes a HUGE difference in the acceptability of fencing! I'm right with ya in regard to small enclosures. Where thousands of acres are involved however, the situation is totally different. The one caveat would be where the fence is used to advantage. Herding game against/along the fence, etc. is wrong.

Hunting in the middle of 1000+ acres by the same means you would w/o a perimeter fence however, I fail to see the advantage. Yes, you know that game is there, but you know game are present on your own property to. You just said so!

Again, I'm not defending canned hunting, I'm merely stressing that "ALL FENCED PROPERTY" is not the same! We could condemn a lot of things because some misuse them. If we made such gross generalizations however, we might as well wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and find a warm spot.

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I'm glad we agree, for the most part, however, here in lies the issue. my property is not fenced in. Deer are allowed to come and go for miles and thousands of acres as they please.

Now, the difference is, since my property is not fenced in I can not grow big bucks with mineral salt and other growth hormones to make them big bucks that other guys can come and pay me to shoot.

Game Farms have the ability to cull their herds like culling a live-well for the biggest fish in a Bass tournament. We can go back to a "cows in the barn yard" if you wish that to be a better example. I don't have the options to cull anything because my Deer are not contained in a space, regardless of the size of the space, containment is containment. I also have not shot a single deer this year. Guys who pay to hunt a Farm have two or three days and most always shoot what they paid for in those 48-72 hours. Unlike them I have been at it for a few months now on an almost daily basis.

This is why I have the highest respect and appreciation for whatever comes close enough for me to shoot and take as a trophy, regardless of how big it was fed to be or how many pounds of mineral salt is out there no one but the land owner knows about to make these ridiculously un-natural antlers.

The point is, I am not spoiled by a farm raised franken-deer or spoiled by knowing that I have a 99.9999% of shooting the animal I am paying for practically blind-folded, as those who do on a "Game Farm". Seriously, if anyone takes pride or feels they scored the big one on a hunt like this... you need to find a new hobby.

Hunting is getting whatever you can get if your lucky enough to get anything at all. ( You may starve to death )

Farming is raising a specific crop to be harvested when you know it is mature. ( you will eat tonight )

That's all I'm trying to point out.