1k yard fclass open rifle...

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  • Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    I've gotten bit by the long range bug and looking to either build another rifle or convert my existing midrange rifle (6mmbr). I felt fine at 800 and 900 with the 6mmbr but at 1k and high winds, I was getting blown all over the place.

    Let me first say I don't want to neck up/down brass or turning necks, the reloading process is already bad enough lol. And I a brass snob, HAS to be lapua brass.

    With the 7mm bullet selection becoming better and better, my first reaction was to build a straight .284 shehane (180gr smk). BUT I have to fire form brass and I don't want to.

    So either the 6.5x47 or the 6.5cm (150gr smk) are both good rounds and don't require fire forming and the dreaded "doughnut".

    The 6 creedmore really has my interest as lapua just started making brass a few months ago. Its certainly faster than my 6mmbr and I could use my stock of 107gr since I have lots on hand and eventually move to the 110gr.

    Anyone have experience with the 6 creedmore? Just wondering if the accuracy is there like it is with the 6mmbr or the 6x47? I need it to be a true 1/4 moa gun and not just a 3 shot group(60 rounds minimum). Major factor is the ES(under 20fps) and SD(under 5fps) to avoid any vertical stringing at distance.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    Buy .260 Lapua brass and there is no necking up/down, or turning - I'm just a tightwad, so I neck and turn. Has a slight FPS edge over 6.5x47 or 6.5CM in base form (40-ish fps IIRC).

    Just a thought.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,247
    Mid-Merlind
    The trade-off with the 7mms is going to be recoil. The heavier bullets sport a higher BC, but you have to get them started downrange at good velocities for their advantage to matter. You'll burn a little more powder, buy a little more lead, but the heavier bullets tend to help downrange.

    I have a great shooting .300 WinMag that would be just plain unpleasant to use after the 60-65 rounds commonly fired in an F-Class match, but that rascal IS competitive. Those 210 Bergers will shrug off a lot of little wind puffs and stay centered pretty good, but going home with a stiff neck and slight concussion takes much of the fun out of doing it.

    The 6mms have their advantages, with better and better bullets becoming available, and extremely low recoil, but the bullets are still on the light end of the spectrum. There is a clear benefit to heavier bullets with higher BCs. The 6mm Creedmoor has become very popular for paper matches, but for steel matches, it lacks enough impact energy to make spotting possible under less than optimum conditions.

    If you were to rechamber your existing 6BR barrel to another 6mm, you'll run into several issues:
    1) Throat erosion at the end of the existing chamber will make it necessary to move the chamber forward. Moving the chamber forward shortens the barrel and cuts velocity potential, the original object of the exercise.
    3) The muzzle will also show wear and will need to be re-cut & crowned, again losing critical barrel length.
    3) If there is substantial throat wear, the 'smith will have a hard time indicating the chamber for setup.
    4) If the 6BR has a lot of rounds on it, the chamber will have work-hardened from the pounding and will have to be hogged out with carbide drills to get past the layer that the reamer won't cut, again costing us barrel length.
    5) Some of your barrel life has been used up and however much remains may not be worth trying to salvage.

    Gunsmiths will almost always tell you that you are better off getting a new barrel. Generally speaking, when one balances new barrel costs, gunsmith costs, downtime and load development factors, the smart money goes into new barrel.

    Going to a completely new barrel provides additional caliber flexibility and the 6.5s have proven themselves over time. The 6.5 bore size is still a great balance of bullet weight, BC, velocity and recoil.The Hornady 6.5 bullets have incredible BCs and if I were still actively shooting F-class, I'd likely be running ELD-Ms in a 6.5-284.

    I have two 6.5-284s I use for F-Class, one is a tactical rifle that I shoot for the training value, the other is a match gun waiting in reserve for when I burn up the other one again.The 6.5-284 has been dominating long range matches since its inception in the 90s.(about week after I built a 6.5-300 Wby). There is good reason for this.

    I also have two .260s, one a hunting rifle and the other a tactical rifle. The .260 is an excellent cartridge, but the factory loadings have not been up to par and the 6.5 Creedmoor is a better bet in several ways. The .260 and 6.5 CM both have barrel life advantages over the 6.5-284, but at some point, shorter barrel life is a necessary evil - one must ultimately decide on priorities: Shall I have a barrel that lasts forever but keeps me from being competitive? Or, shall I have the right tool for the job and treat barrel life as just another consumable?

    If you would like to stick with the 6mms, I'd go to the 6 CM, but know that barrel life will necessarily be rather short. I have run .243s with 105-115 grain match bullets and I always felt that they burned up barrels pretty quickly with no redeeming qualities beyond light recoil, which was critical factor at the time.

    If you go to the 6.5s, the 6.5 CM is a good balance of barrel life and performance, but a guy with a good 6.5-284 will have a slight wind advantage. His cost will be that his powder costs are 20% greater and his barrel life is substantially less. Again, the question: Dwell on the consumables or try to win?

    One of my students, Mark Holland, had been VA state champ and was coaching the VA state team in AZ, Canada and Camp Perry. Mark uses a 6.5-284 for his competition and a .260 for his practice matches. He bought a couple Salvages and does all of his own (Criterion) barrel work, so the reduced barrel life of the 6.5-284 isn't the same kind of issue it would be if the gun had to be sent out. Shooting the .260 forces him to work hard on his wind calls, and when he trades up to the 6.5-284, that extra wind consciousness pays off.

    On the subject of F-Class and wind, I will suggest that most people don't know how to use their sighters. Many people use their sighters to verify their elevation setting and go straight to record fire. At the 800 yard line, we have "unlimited" (within the relay time limit) sighters, yet I always see people fire two or three shots and call it 'done'. I would suggest getting the elevation right with the first one, then using a few more to play with the wind. These sighters are a tool in your kit that doesn't help you unless you use it.

    Hold center and let the wind change, then send one and see what that wind change value does to your bullet. Let the wind change through its cycle and shoot various conditions to see the effects. I often shoot 8-10 sighters, even though I was "ready" after one or two. This simple technique allows me to shoot right through wind changes without guessing and without panic.

    Another thing that can help is to identify wind conditions downrange and find an indicator that shows you your prevailing condition. The closer to the source of the wind, the better, so you have some advance notice before the wind enters you bullet path. Fire your record shots when this indicator shows you that your condition is coming back.
     
    Last edited:

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,247
    Mid-Merlind
    Buy .260 Lapua brass and there is no necking up/down, or turning - I'm just a tightwad, so I neck and turn.
    Good suggestion. Good brass has its advantages. Don't lose sight of the fact that a neck that is thick on one side is showing you a whole case that is thick on one side, not just the neck...
    Has a slight FPS edge over 6.5x47 or 6.5CM in base form (40-ish fps IIRC)....
    The published ballistics DO indicate a slight velocity advantage going to the .260 when compared to the 6.5 CM, but this is highly variable. In my field experience with literally dozens of rifles in both calibers, you just can't tell what you're shooting from behind the gun.

    I have seen as much variation between two rifles of any given caliber as I have between the two calibers. A friend owns a good custom gun shop and he built a pair fo .260s for he and his daughter. Identical actions, stocks, same reamer, same headspace and throating, the ONLY difference was that he had two different barrel manufacturers. With the same load, one rifle delivered almost 100 fps than the other.

    I have seen fast 6.5 CMs exceed the average .260, and I have seen slow .260s that deliver velocities 20-30 fps less than the average 6.5 CM. It is more the rifle than the csliber and when someone asked me whather i though the .260 or the 6.5 CM was a better choice and I tell them that, if they handload for it, whatever they prefer to say is the best choice. If you like saying ".260", get one. If you like saying "Creedmoor", then that's going to be the best one for you

    If one doesn't handload, I believe they are better off with the 6.5 CM as a match gun because of the availability of great ammo right off the shelf. I personally lean toward the .260 because it's been doing the job for 50 years and the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a duplication of an existing cartridge unless you are buying factory ammo for it.
     

    tundramuscle03

    Beer Jockey
    Mar 19, 2007
    2,216
    Dundalk Noob
    I have a 6 Creedmoor that I had built to use in PRS matches and I love the the gun..... I put a Kahntrol CWES Mod 2 brake on it and I love being able to see my impacts and recoil is probably about the same as a .223
     

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    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    Thanks Ed! Everything you said makes perfect sense, I'll likely go with 6.5-284 if I go to 1k yards. There isn't another way around it, i'm afraid. I'll just need to make good friends with a gunsmith so every 1k rounds I can get a new barrel.


    I do the exact thing you are saying with sighters…..I shoot in both wind conditions (easy/hard) and see how things react. I play the law of averages and try to NOT pull a 9.


    There goes another $6k lol
     

    parttimer

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 10, 2013
    1,322
    Calvert
    Thread jack..... Ed are you going to start teaching classes again? I learn so much from your post her I can't imagine how much I would learn from a weekend with you.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,384
    maryland
    Speed,

    Ed, as usual, is right on the money. Literally, since we are talking about rounds with rapid barrel erosion. I shoot a couple of 6BR Normas that I love dearly as they are sweethearts to shoot, track well even on bipods, and I can run them bare muzzle while still shooting faster than the 308 guys. I have a 30-06 that I run rather warm (210s at 2730) for windy days. Sadly, it is approaching the recoil of a 300WM (the performance is within 150fps of what my friend does with his WM). The 284 case, either in its original version, the bill shehane version, or the 6.5-284 Norma, is a better bet. When the 06 goes, it is going to become a 284 or 284 shehane. I will still shoot the BR on calm days. As for the larger 6mms, i did a 6x47L for a hunting buddy and it is a super shooter. Sadly, as Ed mentioned, spotting impacts on larger steel plates (PRS matches, for instance) is difficult. If you want a larger 6, go for the 6XC. I have shot several and they have been universally impressive. I know you want Lapua brass but you can have Norma 6XC if it makes you feel better. I formed a bunch out of 22 250 for a friend some time back.

    Bottom line, for a one gun F open solution, the 6.5-284Norma is it. If you can justify two guns, keep your 6br and either get a 6.5-284 Norma or do a 284.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,247
    Mid-Merlind
    ...spotting impacts on larger steel plates (PRS matches, for instance) is difficult.
    Although paper ballistics place its trajectory pretty close to the .260/6.5CM, impact energy was lame and we had the worst time at the sniper matches with Laura's .243. She is a good shot and I'm an experienced spotter and I could see hits on the beat-up plates that the other spotters missed seeing, but she didn't get credit. If they went into the grass much past 800 yds, they were gone. My 6.5-284 made as much impact on target as the .308s and I could spot most misses myself, so my follow-up percentages ran much better.
    If you want a larger 6, go for the 6XC. I have shot several and they have been universally impressive. I know you want Lapua brass but you can have Norma 6XC if it makes you feel better. I formed a bunch out of 22 250 for a friend some time back.
    The 6XC is a great suggestion (as 6's go) and I had forgotten all about that cartridge. Wonder how David is doing these days...
    Bottom line, for a one gun F open solution, the 6.5-284Norma is it. If you can justify two guns, keep your 6br and either get a 6.5-284 Norma or do a 284.
    Yep, just drink it and be done with it, LOL.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,384
    maryland
    The impact on plates (and their subsequent movement) is really about momentum. Just like shooting falling steel with a handgun and whining that the pepper poppers aren't calibrated (when shooting sissy 9mm loads), I see 6mm shooters moaning about hits and spotting their misses at PRS matches. In pistol steel, shoot heavier bullets or really make the light ones move. In long range rifle steel, the short version is to shoot bigger bullets. I still like 308, even though it isn't competitive anymore, as I rarely have trouble calling a hit. My 30-06, while way too much for PRS, never leaves any doubt.

    I do not know King David personally but I suspect he is continuing to campaign his 6XC rifles successfully. On that subject, and more relevant to OP, the reason the King shoots the 6XC is because he is shooting across the course (XC). Recoil fatigue and positional shift are real factors. The targets are all paper. 6mm is not a handicap in that game. In F class and other belly-only events, the recoil "budget" for most shooters is a bit higher. I submit that the 284 with 180 class bullets (or another 7mm with equivalent or greater case capacity) is superior to its 6.5 child *IF* the shooter does not mind the extra recoil and can maintain solid NPA throughout the string. If the gun is jumping and requiring the shooter to build position every shot, go to a lighter pill (and a smaller bore diameter).

    I keep dancing around the big sign that says "just buy a 6.5-284 Norma" instead of just pointing to it, but that is the price of being a nut for wildcats and oddballs. Take my opinion with a grain of salt and a shot of penicillin.
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    Well I'm getting ready to buy a twin of my 600 yard gun(2nd tube gun) and it happens to be in 6mmbr like my original. Can't beat having the exact same rifle for midrange and long range.

    Here is my thought process, the new gun has 55 rounds through it and a 28" barrel 8 twist. I'm gonna make that my 600 yard gun and ream my current 6mmbr(30" tube with 1,500 rounds)to a 6x47 so I can share the 107gr smk. As long as the new gun shoots, the plan works and the cheapest way I can do it although it won't spin the 110s.

    Now what reamer to use? .272 with 90 thou freebore? Fire forming and neck turning brass is gonna suck. Can I go to a .273 and not have to turn necks much at all?

    Should I turn the necks of the 6.5x47 FIRST so the donut isn't as large?

    Or just go with 6xc and use the soft norma brass? Decisions decisions
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,384
    maryland
    Um, I assume that when you say 6x47 you are referring to the 6-6.5x47Lapua and NOT the 6x47 based on the 222 Rem Mag. for what it is worth, if you are going to stay with a 6, I did a 6x47L for a buddy in delaware. He didn't fireform squat and didn't neck turn. Go .273 or .274 on the neck dimension. As you are only changing the neck diameter, you should not have to fireform. Have your smith chamber to the specs of the lapua brass using the 6mm neck dimension of your choice. You should NOT have doughnuts as your are using all neck, no shoulder. in most cases (not all) you get doughnuts when you neck UP. Provided you neck DOWN without otherwise monkeying with the case, you should see no issues. I don't use Sierra 107s so I don't know what they need. My suggestion would be to subtract 75-80% of neck length of your intended chambering from average bearing surface measurement of 100 pills and freebore to that. This will give you plenty of bullet grip, room to chase the lands, but keep the bearing surface out of the case body. If you go 6x47Lap, either get Whidden to make your dies or buy a Redding 308 Small Base Body die (pm me if you need a part number, I don't have it handy right now). Most 6.5x47 (and, by extension, the 6 too) dies don't size the base of the case body enough. Not sure why the mfgs picked the dimensions they did. The easy solution is to use the 308 SBBD. The fancy solution is to have John Whidden make you dies that size the case just the way you like it.

    If you do a 6XC, just make your brass out of 22-250 Lapua brass. Use PPU 22-250 for foulers and practice ammo. the PPU brass is pretty tough stuff. I use it in one of my .22-250AIs as the case heads stand up to some serious horsepower without loosening pockets as fast as Win, Fed, and RP. Some folks report good accuracy with fireforming 6XC loads. Don't know, as I don't form my improved stuff with bullets anymore. I use pistol powder, COW, and $hit tickets. Saves barrels, and money.
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    No im speaking of the 6x47lapua....necking down the 6.5x47 to a 6x47 lapua.

    I will get custom dies made, full length bushing dies.

    I'm not a wildcat cartridge guy, so necking down and fire forming is all new to me.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,384
    maryland
    Yeah, I figured that was what you meant. the 6x47 (NOT lapua) is an oldie but goodie from benchrest that works great as a varminter too.

    Anyway, make sure you spec a sizing die that gives you the desired base sizing vis-a-vis your chamber reamer print. That's the only thing I can say that snagged my buddy. He had to use my .308 Palma (redding small base body die) body die after a firing or two on his cases. This is a known problem but die makers don't seem interested in fixing it. My buddy just used Redding 6.5x47L Type S neck die set with smaller bushing. Works fine. He now owns the 308 small base body die.

    Don't be worried about necking down a case. It isn't hard. Making 6XC out of .22-250 is not even really that hard. There are some great articles on both cases out there. Given your intended use, I'd suggest the 6x47Lapua as it is stupid easy to make, cases are tough as nails, and you have said you don't want to mess with case forming more than you must. It gives you the lapua brass you wanted, no case forming (I don't count necking up or down as case forming, as the body is unmodified) or fireforming, and reamer body dimensions are pretty standardized.
     

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