Empty chamber carry costs man his life

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  • PO2012

    Active Member
    Oct 24, 2013
    815
    Carrying a handgun with an empty chamber is a form of assisted suicide.

    When I was on active duty as an MP we were forbidden to carry a round in the chamber while in garrison. Only when confronting imminent danger we were permitted to rack the slide on our M9s. This policy finally changed in my last year in the service about the same time we were issued hollow points for routine law enforcement duties.

    While the policy was in effect some guys went on patrol with an empty chamber, mainly out of fear of being caught somehow and given an Article 15. Most folks that I knew (myself included) carried one in the chamber. Better to forfeit one half month's pay and be reduced one grade than to be murdered or crippled for life.

    If you don't trust yourself or those you've entrusted with firearms enough to carry a round in the chamber you probably shouldn't be armed or authorizing others to be armed in the first place.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,216
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    The video isn't great (and this guy made several mistakes) but there's no doubt that those 0.25 seconds could have made a difference. I quit carrying guns with external safeties too. DA/SA or revolvers only for me.
     

    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    Very sad. I wish instructors would stop teaching this as an acceptable carry condition.
    I'm looking at you Israeli method people...
     

    jbrown50

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 18, 2014
    3,471
    DC
    Chances are you'll never be the victim of a crime but in the slight chance you are it will happen very fast and your adrenaline dump will degrade your fine motor skills. You won't be able to read the mind of your assailant so he/she could be a sociopath/psychopath who will shoot you just for the fun of it.

    Oh....it won't be scripted like in the movies and there won't be a rewind button or 20 second time out.
     

    Huckleberry

    No One of Consequence
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    23,309
    Severn & Lewes
    I do not advocate Condition 3 or Israeli Carry but I understand it and when practiced and done properly, it does work for some situations.

    What really got this guy killed was he was living and running his store in Condition White instead of Yellow or even Orange given his surroundings and neighborhood.

    I will venture that the store owner, his son and any other store employees never planned or trained for a robbery, especially an armed robbery. No defensive planning to in include the use of counters and merchandise/shelving for cover and concealment.

    His proximity to his attackers violated every principle and the perp could have easily defeated him with knife even if he had a round chambered. That's why we do the Tueller drill.

    As for multiple attackers, the El Presidente would address that senario.

    And to close with one final piece of Cooper Wisdom

    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Might as well carry without a mag in your pistol if you're going to do that.
     

    HeatSeeker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2012
    3,058
    Maryland
    I understand some people want to carry un-chambered for safety purposes, but he was not even carrying the gun. He retrieved it from behind the counter so why not have a round chambered if the gun is just going to be sitting on a shelf.
     

    Half-cocked

    Senior Meatbag
    Mar 14, 2006
    23,937
    On the other hand, how many people have shot themselves (or simply had AD's) while carrying Condition 3?

    (I'll give you a hint - the answer is "zero")
     

    LCPIWB

    Needs an avatar
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 17, 2011
    2,001
    Underneath the blimp, Md.
    As he was on his own property this probably is a moot point...
    But I thought in California you could open carry, but only if there was no round in the camber. So of course only law abiding citizens are at the disadvantage.
     

    montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    Very sad. I wish instructors would stop teaching this as an acceptable carry condition.
    I'm looking at you Israeli method people...

    Are you aware of any local instructors teaching this? I have never seen or heard anyone local spouting this. Just curious.
     

    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    Are you aware of any local instructors teaching this? I have never seen or heard anyone local spouting this. Just curious.

    Oh yes. I trained with, and instructed for an Israeli outfit that taught condition 3. It is one of several reasons why I left.
    I think they still run classes in MD and WV on occasion.
    The Israelis have some useful concepts especially in active shooter response, but the unloaded chamber thing should have long been removed from their doctrine.
    I saw first hand a lack of understanding and/or disregard for basic safe gun handling due to the mindset that running the gun without a round in the chamber is the ultimate safety.
     

    wilcam47

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 4, 2008
    25,976
    Changed zip code
    well my sig is single/double action so my safety is hammer down chambered. If it gets to a bad scenario my adrenaline is just going to pull the trigger regardless of single or double action.
     

    davsco

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 21, 2010
    8,607
    Loudoun, VA
    the prob with unchambered is you may not have both hands available to chamber a round. one may be fending off a bad guy or shielding your kid behind you.

    there's always an idiot or two who shoots themself holstering or unholstering, but with 100s of uspsa, idpa, 3 gun, etc matches each weekend there are astronomically low incidences. carrying loaded is a safe method if you just pay attention to the basics.
     

    AlanInSilverSpring

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 25, 2017
    1,645
    Doesn't a lot of this mindset come from Hollywood ? How many times have you seen someone holding a gun on someone and when they're not getting the wanted response they "make their point" by racking it to get the sound effect (and no round comes flying out). I especially love it when they do it with a shotgun. IMHO, if you point a gun at someone you better be ready to pull the trigger from the get go. If you use it to intimidate or control someone, you're in trouble.
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    As he was on his own property this probably is a moot point...
    But I thought in California you could open carry, but only if there was no round in the camber. So of course only law abiding citizens are at the disadvantage.
    California open carry is gone but when it last existed a few years ago the gun had to be completely unloaded including no mag inserted. As worthless as a cap gun...
     

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