SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

safecracker · Mar 8, 2012

I got pinched for a misdemeanor in MoCo in 1983. Charge was dropped in court. I had the arrest expunged and received letters of compliance regarding the expungement from MoCo PD and MSP. My lawyer told me to proceed as if it had "never happened".

AC20814 · Mar 8, 2012

Straightshooter said:
If I had an arrest or conviction that I spent a lot of effort and money to have expunged, there's no way I'd give that information to the MSP voluntarily to have it entered into their records again. I'd choose my references to include only people that have no knowlege of such information.

Agreed, especially under those circumstances -- having taken the time, effort, and expense to expunge an offense I would wait a few months and check the CJIS-CR history before filing for a permit to carry. Once the records are expunged from the original court they forward the expungement to the FBI, etc, which takes time, and sometimes that expungement falls between the cracks before it reaches the FBI.

So, be it due to expungement or a "borderline" case (juvenile offense, PBJ'd offense, etc), wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the only offenses one needs to disclose are the ones they find on their own CJIS-CR record?

-Alex

Lex Armarum · Mar 8, 2012

JavaDan said:
Rusty, I am not a lawyer - you are, and I respect you. However . . . .

The language in the permit law is very clear about their mandate insofar as crimes that will impact a permit application:

1. Is 18 years of age or older.
2. Has not been convicted of a felony or of a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.
3. Has not been committed within the previous 10 years to any juvenile detention center for longer than one year.
4. Is not an addict or alcoholic nor has ever been convicted of a narcotics offense.
5. Has not, based on the results of investigation, exhibited a propensity for violence or instability.

I think context here is important as it is with most applications of the statutes.

Yes, speeding 15mph over the limit is technically a crime. It is just annotated in the traffic law instead of Art 27. Does it have any bearing whatsoever in the context of the application review based on the permit application law? - I think not.

IMHO, if you had a traffic charge that could have resulted in you being put into one of the categories above which may exclude you from the permit being approved, I would include it. e.g. DWI, DUI, unauthorized use or any other traffic offense where the penalty might apply to one of the things enumerated in the law.

If, however, you are worried about speeding, improper lane change and the like, I would answer no on the application. It has no bearing whatsoever with anything within the context of the reasons for which you can be denied a permit.

Bottom line, if one had a traffic charge that could have, or did, result in a 1 year prison sentence or was in any way related to alcohol or drugs, one would not be wise to answer no.

Should you answer no because of this concept of context, and you had a couple of speeding tickets, you might be thinking about whether or not they might find those on your driving record and then deny you because you weren't truthful on the application. Firstly, I think if you honestly didn't have anything that bears on the denial reasons, then you are being truthful. Secondly, I think the courts would have a real problem with that. If a non-disclosed traffic ticket that had no bearing on the enumerated denial reasons in the law is their reason for denial, then MSP would be trampling on your 2A rights far worse then applying the G&S standard.

Just my thoughts.

For a moment I was pissed by what you wrote. Than I realized that you don't know any better and decided to let it go.

Suffice it to say that the question you are answering IS NOT the question I answered. Someone asked if violation of traffic laws was still a criminal offense. It is. There is no changing that. The permitting law merely exempts folks from reporting certain crimes. Now you might wonder why I didn't venture further in my opinion and give my answer in the context of the permitting law. Well, here's why:

1. Doing something like that constitutes practicing law;
2. I don't give out legal advice in public postings for the most part unless I'm dead certain I know the answer and even then its iffy because I don't want the liability that comes with it.

Please don't come on here and besmirch my reputation without a complete understanding of the topic at hand and the reasoning behind my posting. You could've PM'd me first and bounced your assertion off me instead of calling me out in the open forum.

Well... quid pro quo.

JavaDan · Mar 8, 2012

Rusty Shackleford said:
For a moment I was pissed by what you wrote. Than I realized that you don't know any better and decided to let it go.

Suffice it to say that the question you are answering IS NOT the question I answered. Someone asked if violation of traffic laws was still a criminal offense. It is. There is no changing that. The permitting law merely exempts folks from reporting certain crimes. Now you might wonder why I didn't venture further in my opinion and give my answer in the context of the permitting law. Well, here's why:

1. Doing something like that constitutes practicing law;
2. I don't give out legal advice in public postings for the most part unless I'm dead certain I know the answer and even then its iffy because I don't want the liability that comes with it.

Please don't come on here and besmirch my reputation without a complete understanding of the topic at hand and the reasoning behind my posting. You could've PM'd me first and bounced your assertion off me instead of calling me out in the open forum.

Well... quid pro quo.

Wow. Calling you out or besmirching you was the farthest thing from my mind. I'm really sorry you took it that way.

There were multiple posts about traffic tickets, and I was simply trying to offer another idea about the question of reporting them on the application - as a layman.

As I stated in my post, I'm not a lawyer and it was just something for others to consider. Your post simply was the seed that got me to thinking about it in that light. Nothing more than that.

I do understand why you have to be careful about posting what could be construed as legal advice.

Again, apologies if it came across differently to you.

This thread is already long enough, so I guess nuff said about it.

mrjam2jab · Mar 8, 2012

awptickes said:
"Mark Bowen" <MBowen@mdsp.org>

The Attorney General has a MD State Police email address???

Gray Peterson said:
Let's not be so hasty. We do not know which "court" he was referring to.

Actually....the "will continue to be guided..." tells me he isn't changing anything.

Tim460 · Mar 8, 2012

From recent experience, I'm in the application process with several law enforcement agencies in MD and have gone through the background check process twice, one in progress and one just completed. On the background packets, which are extensive in terms of history, I was told by both agencies to answer no for "have you ever been convicted of a crime" though I did have a speeding ticket 13 years ago.

For the purposes of the background packet, traffic infractions were treated separately from "Crime".

gsrcrxsi · Mar 8, 2012

X-Factor said:
Sent this:

Sir:

In the light of Judge Leggs's District Court ruling in the case of Woolard v. Sheridan, will the Maryland State Police issue Handgun Permits that reflect THAT decision (striking the "Good and Substantial" clause), or continue to issue them based ON "Good and Substantial" and the old way of issuance? I would refer you to page 20 of Judge Legg's decision:

"At bottom, this case rests on a simple proposition: If the Government wishes to burden a right guaranteed by the Constitution, it may do so provided that it can show a satisfactory justification and a sufficiently adapted method. The showing, however, is always the Government's to make. A citizen may not be required to offer a "good and substantial reason" why he should be permitted to exercise hus rights. The right's existence is all the reason he needs."

Hence the need for my question. Will MSP NOW honor the spirit and letter of Judge Legg's decision or continue to issue permits based on struck down encumbrances?

I look forward to your reply and remain Respectfully Yours,

**X-Factor**

you backed him in a corner, i bet you wont get a reply lol.

Lex Armarum · Mar 8, 2012

JavaDan said:
Wow. Calling you out or besmirching you was the farthest thing from my mind. I'm really sorry you took it that way.

There were multiple posts about traffic tickets, and I was simply trying to offer another idea about the question of reporting them on the application - as a layman.

As I stated in my post, I'm not a lawyer and it was just something for others to consider. Your post simply was the seed that got me to thinking about it in that light. Nothing more than that.

I do understand why you have to be careful about posting what could be construed as legal advice.

Again, apologies if it came across differently to you.

This thread is already long enough, so I guess nuff said about it.

I'm tired so maybe I took it the wrong way. Either way, no harm no foul. It's water under the bridge.

Gray Peterson · Mar 9, 2012

Putting the finishing touches on the fillable app. It's not perfect, and you'll still need to circle some things and sign them, but it's good enough to be sent in to the MDSP!

Will post probably later in the day today.

-Gray

dblas · Mar 9, 2012

I will be more than happy to test it Gray when you are done. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I won't get a chance to get over to MD live Scan until Monday at the earliest, so this would be a great help as my writing generally sucks.

Yoboney · Mar 9, 2012

Tim460 said:
From recent experience, I'm in the application process with several law enforcement agencies in MD and have gone through the background check process twice, one in progress and one just completed. On the background packets, which are extensive in terms of history, I was told by both agencies to answer no for "have you ever been convicted of a crime" though I did have a speeding ticket 13 years ago.

For the purposes of the background packet, traffic infractions were treated separately from "Crime".

Speeding etc is not a criminal offense to be listed..Now if you were speeding and then arrested for a dui that may be different but normal tickets are ok to say no and apply.

Hopalong · Mar 9, 2012

Gray Peterson said:
Putting the finishing touches on the fillable app. It's not perfect, and you'll still need to circle some things and sign them, but it's good enough to be sent in to the MDSP!

Will post probably later in the day today.

-Gray

Gray, that's awesome. Make sure it gets posted in the "HOW TO APPLY..." sticky thread and let MSI leadership know about it (assuming you haven't already) as they'll likely want to post it on their FAQ.

As someone with horrible handwriting who was just about to submit an app, let me say, "Thank You".

Boxcab · Mar 9, 2012

Gray Peterson said:
Putting the finishing touches on the fillable app. It's not perfect, and you'll still need to circle some things and sign them, but it's good enough to be sent in to the MDSP!

Will post probably later in the day today.

-Gray

Gray,

Thanks for jumping in with the help. I have not seen your form, but is there any reason that the MSP would see your form as "not" being theirs and so unacceptable? I'm sure any reasonable person would say it is good to go, just concerned about how the MSP might see it. :innocent0

X-Factor · Mar 9, 2012

Valid concern

Maryland Hunter · Mar 9, 2012

Gray,

Thank for all of your hard work. I wish MSP would put an online version up. Writing in the small spaces on page 7, and trying to get it all to fit and be legible is quite challenging. Typing will make it much easier.

To those who are going to use Gray's PDF form, and going to Livescan. The Livescan place, at least the one I went to, Marylandfingerprinting.com, will print out pages 7 & 13, as they need to be notarized. They are printed out with the notary seal already on them, and those forms will need to be filled out by you. Not knowing this, thinking that they would use the old press-style seal, I had filled out all of my forms before going there, and then had to fill out 7 & 13 all over again.

MH

Storm40 · Mar 9, 2012

I heard a statement from Greg Shipley (spelling?) on WBAL this morning that was a bit ambiguous to my sleep fogged brain. The statement made it sound as if they had received guidance from the AG's office that they should either not process apps or they're going to process apps as if G&S were still in place until the stay was decided. Hopefully someone with a better memory will come along and clarify...

X-Factor · Mar 9, 2012

I don't doubt that either of those are true. Check a few posts up, I sent a clarifying email to AAG Bowen last night regarding this. We shall see what he says. I bet he dodges my question.

Klunatic · Mar 9, 2012

X-Factor said:
I don't doubt that either of those are true. Check a few posts up, I sent a clarifying email to AAG Bowen last night regarding this. We shall see what he says. I bet he dodges my question.

Follow up with a phone call. Hell get his number and post it and we all will follow up with a phone call. He can't ignore a few hundred phone calls.

Dimes · Mar 9, 2012

I mailed my application off yesterday.

Fingerprints(Live Scan) 57.25
Notary: $4 ($2 per page)
I had my fingerprints done in Clinton MD

7201 Old Alexandria Ferry Road
Suite 1A
Clinton, MD 20735

mdoffroad · Mar 9, 2012

Whats his email again? I'd like to email him too, then I'd be glad to followup as well.

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