MSP Appeals to the Office of Administrative Hearings

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  • Has anyone received instructions or can point to instructions how to initiate an appeal of a HPRB decision to OAH?

    Does such a thing even exist? From the way I read it MSP has the ability to appeal to OAH but I can't find anywhere where the applicant has the right to appeal the appeal...I think you have to go through with the OAH hearing and then appeal to the circuit court....which of course will take plenty of time and money...all as intended....the bottom line is that this new procedure will in fact dissuade people from applying and those that do will be stopped in their tracks once they find out how much it's going to cost with a likelihood of failing anyway.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    If you can PROVE that they lied under oath, you have a Perjury beef against them (listen to the oath they swear to. It's why I emphasized that point in the after meeting "hallway conversations" in the first place.)

    And who exactly is going to file perjury charges on behalf of the State of MD if the troopers are following the instructions of the MD Office of Attorney General? If there is some civil cause of action, you could file a civil suit, but perjury is criminal and prosecuted by the same folks who created the policy MDSPLD is following in the first place.
     

    shmuel2004

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jun 1, 2016
    140
    Pikesville, MD
    I have 30 clients lined up for HPRB appeals, many of whom would have made it before the new law came into effect if the board was actually meeting the 90 day requirement. Almost all of them are quitting now because the likelihood of winning the ALJ appeal is very slim.

    The OAH review is de novo, so they don't have to consider the HPRB decision at all. I've asked several attorneys who deal with OAH in regard to other licensing or administrative matters, and they've all said the ALJs give a lot of a deference to the state agency, especially whe the regulation itself leaves things up to the agency.

    In this case, the regulation only says good and substantial and then leaves it up to the agency to decide what that it is. MSP has been pretty clear on what those standards are in their view, even though we don't agree. Regardless, in the eyes of an ALJ, the reg gives MSP a lot of discretion and they are likely not going to second guess MSP.

    Also, the regulation puts no limitations on the Agency's ability to restrict where and when you can carry. The reg just says that the MSP super can make such limitations. So, particularly with regard to restrictions, I doubt there is much chance for success.

    Finally, I know I'm sounding really doom and gloom, but I'm a realist. Scotus is very unlikely going to come in and make his all go away. I do think they can and should overturn may issue, but I don't think they can/will overturn all the training requirements and possibly the restrictions. States have pretty broad authority to place training and time/place restrictions, even on activities protected by the 1st amendment. Think about commercial advertising or other business licensing. Arguably, there is a lot of precedent for a state to require training before one can exercise a const right, and the court is not likely going to delve into the nitty gritty details of how much. Same with restrictions. States place all sorts of restrictions on commercial activity when it comes to how and and when. I agree that carrying is a different ball game because it falls under 2A, but its hard to see how the court can allow states to restrict when u can make a living, but they can interefer with when u can carry.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,537
    Does such a thing even exist? From the way I read it MSP has the ability to appeal to OAH but I can't find anywhere where the applicant has the right to appeal the appeal...I think you have to go through with the OAH hearing and then appeal to the circuit court....which of course will take plenty of time and money...all as intended....the bottom line is that this new procedure will in fact dissuade people from applying and those that do will be stopped in their tracks once they find out how much it's going to cost with a likelihood of failing anyway.

    If HPRB sustains MSP, you then file appeal to OAH.

    My curiosity is if one appeals, could they do so in Kensington MD? There are four OAH venues in Maryland that hear cases. When MSP files, I guess they all default to Hunt Valley. If the applicant can appeal and be heard locally, it would make sense just to boot your case , if MSP is going to appeal your win regardless. You take the loss , then appeal locally. Save the two trips, and get your OAH hearing locally. Expedite your HPRB hearing perhaps too if they know you'll be a no show. Could really press a lot of cases at OAH very rapidly.
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,307
    Underground Bunker
    If you can PROVE that they lied under oath, you have a Perjury beef against them (listen to the oath they swear to. It's why I emphasized that point in the after meeting "hallway conversations" in the first place.)

    They did lie , but even at that it would be hard to proof they did it with malice and to accomplish an end game .
    That juice is not worth the squeeze , that just prepares me and an attorney to be ready for the next round of lies .

    The MSP LD tell so many "stories" they are forgetting the story before the last story .
    Plus when you get a different Trooper up to bat that Trooper my say something that is not accurate .
     

    Applehd

    Throbbing Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 26, 2012
    5,285
    On the OAH website, there are places you are supposed to be able to search decisions from the ALJs... supposedly... Making random selections from different Boards and Commissions, I have found nothing. There is a place for MSP and the category of LD, but nothing, no decisions, just as suspected. It is not under the DPSCS and the HPRB is not found anywhere listed on the site. I guess the site will have to be updated to include the new things the MSP and the OAG have up their sleeves.

    The OAH website shows as unsecure... http://oah.maryland.gov/
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,537
    On the OAH website, there are places you are supposed to be able to search decisions from the ALJs... supposedly... Making random selections from different Boards and Commissions, I have found nothing. There is a place for MSP and the category of LD, but nothing, no decisions, just as suspected. It is not under the DPSCS and the HPRB is not found anywhere listed on the site. I guess the site will have to be updated to include the new things the MSP and the OAG have up their sleeves.

    The OAH website shows as unsecure... http://oah.maryland.gov/

    Searched as well, but to be fair there are no determinations yet. What I found interesting was just calling the docket office and asking if MSP has filed any appeals of HPRB decisions, I was told they could not disclose that. Yet, they have a searchable database of rulings..
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    What I found interesting was just calling the docket office and asking if MSP has filed any appeals of HPRB decisions, I was told they could not disclose that. Yet, they have a searchable database of rulings..

    I suppose there's some merit to keeping pending matters under wraps, since many OAH matters involve things like insurance and other private stuff that, if settled before the ALJ rules, would preserve privacy. The only time I appeared before an ALJ, we worked it out before a ruling was needed. Doesn't hurt my feelings that there is no record of that squabble (in the form of a ruling, either way) in that database.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,537
    I suppose there's some merit to keeping pending matters under wraps, since many OAH matters involve things like insurance and other private stuff that, if settled before the ALJ rules, would preserve privacy. The only time I appeared before an ALJ, we worked it out before a ruling was needed. Doesn't hurt my feelings that there is no record of that squabble (in the form of a ruling, either way) in that database.

    I wasn't asking for names, just if and how many. Pretty funny how when they appealed mine it was public immediately and I was notified by a MDS contributor who saw it before I ever got the notice in the mail.
     

    Adolph Oliver Bush

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 13, 2015
    1,940
    I cannot speak for any 2A Org other than the MSRPA, but I fought against this change, and all other infringement bills, in testimony and in the halls of Annapolis last year and will continue to fight further infringement activities that we expect to see this year.

    We are all in the fight and push for protecting our members, all the while watching those memberships rolls dwindle when people complain that "we" don't do anything in this Progressive Democrat stronghold.


    Thanks for doing this. And I hear you on the people complaining thing.....
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,307
    Underground Bunker
    Thanks for doing this. And I hear you on the people complaining thing.....

    Just to be clear I made a statement about the NRA , not the Gun club .

    I was not the only person that did not know the NRA and his group are the same .

    FYI ; I sent my cell number along with public and private offers to help him in a way that may help the cause .

    I have not heard from anyone at this point . I am not upset I just want to help and be strong together .
     

    Adolph Oliver Bush

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 13, 2015
    1,940
    Welcome back welder, I missed you!


    Likewise!


    I was (actually) banned for "shaming." The first thread that I hit upon my return was the epic funny picture thread. Unfortunately, it picked it up right around the tard/not-a-retard fiasco. I couldn't believe what I was reading.



    Please do contribute here Welder. And give my regards to Welder Jr!
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,307
    Underground Bunker
    Likewise!


    I was (actually) banned for "shaming." The first thread that I hit upon my return was the epic funny picture thread. Unfortunately, it picked it up right around the tard/not-a-retard fiasco. I couldn't believe what I was reading.



    Please do contribute here Welder. And give my regards to Welder Jr!

    Thank You AOB , I posted above to make sure nobody took my earlier post the wrong way . I am also glad you made your way back .
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    And who exactly is going to file perjury charges on behalf of the State of MD if the troopers are following the instructions of the MD Office of Attorney General? If there is some civil cause of action, you could file a civil suit, but perjury is criminal and prosecuted by the same folks who created the policy MDSPLD is following in the first place.

    I guess in theory, you could use their contradictory statements (perjury) to impeach them so they could not testify.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    I have 30 clients lined up for HPRB appeals, many of whom would have made it before the new law came into effect if the board was actually meeting the 90 day requirement. Almost all of them are quitting now because the likelihood of winning the ALJ appeal is very slim.



    The OAH review is de novo, so they don't have to consider the HPRB decision at all. I've asked several attorneys who deal with OAH in regard to other licensing or administrative matters, and they've all said the ALJs give a lot of a deference to the state agency, especially whe the regulation itself leaves things up to the agency.



    In this case, the regulation only says good and substantial and then leaves it up to the agency to decide what that it is. MSP has been pretty clear on what those standards are in their view, even though we don't agree. Regardless, in the eyes of an ALJ, the reg gives MSP a lot of discretion and they are likely not going to second guess MSP.



    Also, the regulation puts no limitations on the Agency's ability to restrict where and when you can carry. The reg just says that the MSP super can make such limitations. So, particularly with regard to restrictions, I doubt there is much chance for success.



    Finally, I know I'm sounding really doom and gloom, but I'm a realist. Scotus is very unlikely going to come in and make his all go away. I do think they can and should overturn may issue, but I don't think they can/will overturn all the training requirements and possibly the restrictions. States have pretty broad authority to place training and time/place restrictions, even on activities protected by the 1st amendment. Think about commercial advertising or other business licensing. Arguably, there is a lot of precedent for a state to require training before one can exercise a const right, and the court is not likely going to delve into the nitty gritty details of how much. Same with restrictions. States place all sorts of restrictions on commercial activity when it comes to how and and when. I agree that carrying is a different ball game because it falls under 2A, but its hard to see how the court can allow states to restrict when u can make a living, but they can interefer with when u can carry.


    I don’t remember meeting you at any HPRB meeting or MGA committee hearing. Since you joined mds in 2016, I can only assume your amount of experience.

    I would debate many of your assumptions and conclusions above.

    May I suggest you network with some other active 2A attorneys and groups and your opinions might change.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Pretty funny how when they appealed mine it was public immediately and I was notified by a MDS contributor who saw it before I ever got the notice in the mail.

    Disturbing shit.....

    What exactly is this machine everyone is fighting? Why doesn't this exist in Delaware or PA. How can we (as regular old US citizens) have this massive of a discrepancy in the way we are treated?
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    I was not the only person that did not know the NRA and his group are the same .

    FWIW, the NRA and the MSRPA are not the same. The MSRPA is not part of the NRA. It is a partner organization at the state level, and is recognized by the NRA as the "official" state organization, but it is not the same thing.
     

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